Should you be able to dodge a fireball by readying an action?

[Mistwell]

"towards an area" is no more precise than "towards a general area".

Why did you alter the text. Towards the target, that's what it says (for target spells). Towards the area is obviously for area spells, and I said that, and you didn't respond.

In addition, nothing in the RC states that the pointing must come before the action of triggering the spell, rather than as part of the action of triggering the spell. I checked the store copy at my session tonight; nowhere in the entry for spell trigger magic items does it state an order of operations. Since it does not explicitly state that the pointing and command word must come before the attempt to activate the wand (rather than being a condition of activation), I think it's pretty reasonable to say that they are what triggers the spell in the wand. In other words, to trigger a wand of fireball, you say "Fry!" (or whatever) and point it at something, and the fireball launches forth. There is no step after pointing and speaking the command word; those are the activation of the item.

If I must do X, Y, and Z to activate something, then X, Y, and Z are not the thing you are activating, but the precursors to that thing. They are the steps necessary to activate it. Deciding on target with a spell is the last step, so by definition pointing the wand at the target cannot also be the last step, it has to come before the last step. So if I ready an action based on pointing of the wand, my readied action is coming before the last step - the targeting for the spell itself (as opposed to the targeting required to activate the wand).

Regardless, I think we are no longer making progress with this debate. It's in the very least a reasonable interpretation that the pointing of the wand towards the target comes before the spell is actually activated, and therefore ruling you can ready an action based on that pointing is also reasonable. So the Original Poster now has one reasonable basis in RAW to do what he wanted to do, and the question is answered. Some DMs won't allow it, like apparently yourself, but it's not a clear cut decision.

 

[Zurai]

Why did you alter the text. Towards the target, that's what it says (for target spells). Towards the area is obviously for area spells, and I said that, and you didn't respond.

Uh, maybe because we're talking about an area spell? Fireball affects an area, not a character.

If I must do X, Y, and Z to activate something, then X, Y, and Z are not the thing you are activating, but the precursors to that thing.

You are continually ignoring that X, Y, and Z do not have to be precursors. You have to press the ON button to turn your computer on; does that mean that pressing the ON button does not activate the computer? By your logic, you have to press the ON button and only then can you attempt to activate the computer.

Deciding on target with a spell is the last step, so by definition pointing the wand at the target cannot also be the last step, it has to come before the last step.

Incorrect. Pointing the wand and speaking the command is targetting the spell. Read the language of the rules again, slowly. "To activate a wand, a character must ... point it in the direction of the target or area". To activate ... point. Pointing activates the wand. It is not a step that comes before the wand activates, it is the step that activates it. Once the wand is activated, the spell triggers and the Fireball streaks forth.

 

[Piratecat]

When you're wrong, you're wrong. In general, it's polite to admit that rather than try to worm away from it. I didn't just say "you're wrong" and leave it at that - I provided clear, precise quotes from the rules to support my position. Something you have yet to do, I might add.

No, you said it in a manner that seemed tailor-made to piss other people off. It takes no more time to phrase a disagreement politely than it does to make it rude, so please -- do what you can to be friendly and not confrontative. It makes the boards more pleasant for everyone.

Feel free to drop me an email if you want to discuss it.

 

[Elethiomel]

Not if the gun is functioning properly. Pulling a gun's trigger, assuming it is operational and the safety is off, fires the gun. There are no other steps.

Slight correction: Pulling the trigger, assuming the gun is functional, the safety is off, and there is a bullet in the firing chamber causes the gun to fire. There is time between the pulling of the trigger and the firing of the bullet. That time is taken by mechanical parts in the gun between the trigger and the bullet moving around (often just the firing pin, sometimes there are more parts in between).

My point is that like a wand, a gun requires activation. This activation takes place before the gun goes off. Not much before, but there is an interval.

 

[Mistwell]

Uh, maybe because we're talking about an area spell? Fireball affects an area, not a character.



You are continually ignoring that X, Y, and Z do not have to be precursors. You have to press the ON button to turn your computer on; does that mean that pressing the ON button does not activate the computer? By your logic, you have to press the ON button and only then can you attempt to activate the computer.



Incorrect. Pointing the wand and speaking the command is targetting the spell. Read the language of the rules again, slowly. "To activate a wand, a character must ... point it in the direction of the target or area". To activate ... point. Pointing activates the wand. It is not a step that comes before the wand activates, it is the step that activates it. Once the wand is activated, the spell triggers and the Fireball streaks forth.

Activating the wand results in the spell being cast. Deciding on the target of the spell must be the last step of the spell casting. The spell cannot exist before the wand is activated, and the spell targeting cannot exist until the spell exists. Hence, targeting the wand to activate the wand must come before targeting the spell. There are other precursors to the spell existing from the wand, including the spell being on your spell list, manipulating the wand, and speaking a command word. ALL of those things have to exist before the spell goes off.

Do you agree that one reasonable interpretation of the rules allows for a ready action to a pointing of a wand before the spell goes off? I am not asking if it is your personal preferred interpretation, just if you think it is one reasonable one. Because as far as I can tell we are both expressing pure opinion on the order of events, and none of this is 100% clear in the RAW.

 

[Zurai]

Do you agree that one reasonable interpretation of the rules allows for a ready action to a pointing of a wand before the spell goes off?

You can certainly ready an action to move if someone points a wand at you.

It'd be hideously stupid, but you can do it. Pointing is a free action. So he points the wand at you, you move, then he targets the wand and the spell. Net gain: nothing but a wasted move. There's no way to determine when someone is casting a spell from a wand until the spell goes off, so it is NOT possible to ready an action only if the wand-user is targetting the spell at you.

 

[Zurai]

My point is that like a wand, a gun requires activation. This activation takes place before the gun goes off. Not much before, but there is an interval.

Said interval is not perceptible without mechanical assistance. An interval that is imperceptible is not generally going to be something that matters to a game that has 6 seconds as its smallest measured time interval. For all intents and purposes, pulling the trigger of a functional gun results in the gun immediately firing.

 

[Hypersmurf]

My point is that like a wand, a gun requires activation. This activation takes place before the gun goes off. Not much before, but there is an interval.

And all those fiddly mechanical parts in wands result in an interval as well?

Before all the necessary steps are taken, the wand is not activated, and the spell is not in effect.

When all the necessary steps are taken, the wand is activated, and the spell is in effect.

So if all the steps but one are taken, the wand is not activated, and the spell is not in effect.

At the time the last step is taken, the wand is activated, and the spell is in effect.

So if the last step is pointing at the target, then at the time pointing at the target happens, the wand is activated, and the spell is in effect.

Thus, if the last step is pointing at the target, pointing at the target happens at the time the spell is in effect, which is the same time you decide the target per the rules of spells.

The decision, the effect, and the pointing all happen at the same time as long as the last step in the activation is pointing at the target.

If pointing at the target is not the last step, then you must point at the target before you decide what the target is; an obvious impossibility. The only way to satisfy the rules of wands and the rules of spells is for the pointing at the target to be the last step in the activation... and if it is, there's no problem.

And no interval.

"Bibbity..." [wave wand about]
"Bobbity..." [wave wand about]
"Boo!" [point at the target you're choosing as it gets turned into a frog]

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

You can certainly ready an action to move if someone points a wand at you.

It'd be hideously stupid, but you can do it. Pointing is a free action. So he points the wand at you, you move, then he targets the wand and the spell. Net gain: nothing but a wasted move. There's no way to determine when someone is casting a spell from a wand until the spell goes off, so it is NOT possible to ready an action only if the wand-user is targetting the spell at you.

I didn't ask you if your personal interpretation of how a wand is used makes it useful. I understand your personal opinion is that aiming of the wand is simultaneous with the spell going off, but I also know that you have seen the argument for the wand aiming coming before the wand's spell going off, and that neither interpretation is crystal clear in the rules as being 100% correct.

So I asked you if you think ONE REASONABLE INTERPRETATION of how wands work allows for the wand aiming to come before the wand's spell goes off, thus making a readied action versus a wand aiming a useful tactic.

In other words, why are you so certain your interpretation of activation is simultaneous with the spell going off, as opposed to being open to the possibility that it is a necessary precursor to a spell going off (much like flipping a switch to create a flame below a pot of water is a necessary precursor to boiling that water on your stove, but is not what is actually making the water boil).

 

[Mistwell]

And all those fiddly mechanical parts in wands result in an interval as well?

Before all the necessary steps are taken, the wand is not activated, and the spell is not in effect.

When all the necessary steps are taken, the wand is activated, and the spell is in effect.

So if all the steps but one are taken, the wand is not activated, and the spell is not in effect.

At the time the last step is taken, the wand is activated, and the spell is in effect.

So if the last step is pointing at the target, then at the time pointing at the target happens, the wand is activated, and the spell is in effect.

Thus, if the last step is pointing at the target, pointing at the target happens at the time the spell is in effect, which is the same time you decide the target per the rules of spells.

The decision, the effect, and the pointing all happen at the same time as long as the last step in the activation is pointing at the target.

If pointing at the target is not the last step, then you must point at the target before you decide what the target is; an obvious impossibility. The only way to satisfy the rules of wands and the rules of spells is for the pointing at the target to be the last step in the activation... and if it is, there's no problem.

And no interval.

"Bibbity..." [wave wand about]
"Bobbity..." [wave wand about]
"Boo!" [point at the target you're choosing as it gets turned into a frog]

-Hyp.

If you want the pointing to be the last step, then that means the command word or manipulating the wand (or really both) comes before the pointing. Therefore the command word or manipulation of the wand can be the trigger, and you get the same effect. One way or the other, something comes before the spell is triggered, and that something can be a trigger for a ready action that happens before the spell goes off.