D&D (2024) Sorcerer (Playtest 7)

[Neonchameleon]

And they still have fewer spells known (22) than:

Warlocks (~30 min)

You're adding subclasses on one side but not the other. The warlock should know significantly fewer spells than the sorcerer because they don't have to spread them across multiple spell levels.

So... yeah. They are getting more spells... and still they have the least amount of spells of any fullcaster you care to name, and a few half casters too.

I would however say that the absolute number of spells known matters. And that people are now getting too many spells.

Great! Seriously, you are telling me it is a problem that the players are in a hostage situation, and the Sorcerer can solve it with a spell and metamagic option. Again, how is this bad?! "Because no spell currently in the game could solve it in this precise set of circumstances where the hostage is 60 ft away and the wizard can't reach them to use the teleport spell in the exact same way"

I'm telling you that it's stunningly unbalanced compared to all other metamagic. If you think metamagics should all be stronger I don't disagree. But one is out of line with the rest is a bad situation.

Yeah. They can't. This is something SORCERERS can do. Something UNIQUE to them and their metamagic. That sounds like something to celebrate, not nerf it because a 13th level sorcerer who happens to have teleport and happens to have distant spell and happens to find themselves in a hostage situation can actually use their unique abilities to solve a difficult problem.

If sorcerers are intended to have that spike on that spell (and maybe a couple of others) that should be a class feature. As it is it's a research test.

 

[Vael]

The other way to do this is to improve the Sorcerer spell list ... give them unique spells that are competitive with some of the better spells. Sorcererous Burst and Arcane Eruption are solid additions, because they can do almost any damage type and scale well. I think Sorcerous Vitality should come back, I think Self-healing is valid for them. I'd consider making Chaos Bolt better and restricting it to the Sorcerer list.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So could someone explain to my why people think more spells for a Sorcerer is nessisary? Looking a the storm Sorcerer I found less than 30 spells that I would take that fit that type of a thematic and while 22 might mean that I had to exchange afew spells out as I gained levels for similar spells that were higher levels, or not take a spell or two that were only tangentaly thematic.

More is not nessisarily better. A Sorcerer dose not need to be a generalist, they do not need a huge spell list, what they do need is the ability to pick from a huge list of spells. The great thing about the Aberrant is that they have access to mind affecting and psionic spells that are usually Wizard, bard or Cleric spells; then as they increase in level they can improve those types of spells

Well, first I would note that a lack of thematic spells doesn't necessarily mean that the sorcerer is in a good place. You could use that same argument to say that a Poison-Themed sorcerer would be fine with only 15 spells, because there are less than a dozen poison themed spells.

And, in actuality, a sorcerer does need to be a generalist in a manner of speaking. If the only thing a sorcerer can do is cast damage spells... well, they kind of suck as an option. There are plenty of other casters that can deal damage, control the battlefield, and buff their allies or debuff their enemies or both!

And to a degree, there is a discussion of power. With 22 spells you have, what? Three spells of every level til 6, then one 7th, one 8th and one 9th? An extra one floating around there. Are we really going to try and pretend there are only three useful spells they might want at levels 2 and 3? You can try and argue many of those spells aren't thematic, but that literally never stops any other caster. It isn't thematic for a war cleric to cast Control Water, but they still can and many do when they find it to be a useful option to have.

Finally, your idea of thematic and my idea of thematic might not match. For example, in the dragon Sorcerer I gave them Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum and Mordenkainen's Secret Chest. I've had people tell me that doesn't match the theme, because my dragon sorcerer should only take fire and blast spells.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Again though, at the end of the day, what this range usually results in is the following:

• Nothing, because your DM doesn't run fights at those ranges.
• Very boring fights where the archer makes a lot of attacks over several rounds and everyone else watches.

And mounted combat usually leads to

• Nothing because the DM doesn't run fights in big enough areas
• Very boring fights where the mounted character makes a lot of attacks over several rounds and everyone else watches

But, you know... instead of ripping Mounted Combat from the game and spitting on its corpse, we could.... fix that. And let people enjoy the things they enjoy, without insisting they are pointless or ruin the game.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You're adding subclasses on one side but not the other. The warlock should know significantly fewer spells than the sorcerer because they don't have to spread them across multiple spell levels.

Half the sorcerer subclasses don't have spells to add. That's the problem. Every single warlock subclass does have spells to add. So, yeah, I'd love to add the subclass spells from Draconic and Wild sorcerers. Can we have some?

And, you know, if you think the sorcerer should have more spells known than the warlock... then adding more spells to the sorcerer would seem a GREAT place to start there, don't you think?

I would however say that the absolute number of spells known matters. And that people are now getting too many spells.

Now? That's a strange thing to say. Most of those classes had very minor increases. Wizard's had a significant jump, as did Paladins, but Druids only gained two or three spells since they had subclasses before. Bard's only had two more. Clerics got one more.

So, did that one extra spell (Commune) really tip the cleric from perfectly fine to too many spells?

And, um, what do you mean by the "absolute number of spells known" how is that different than my numbers?

I'm telling you that it's stunningly unbalanced compared to all other metamagic. If you think metamagics should all be stronger I don't disagree. But one is out of line with the rest is a bad situation.

But it isn't. You've shown that in a niche situation, with a single specific spell, it lets you be cool. But is a dramatic royal rescue with a teleport REALLY overpowered compared to using Subtle Spell and Phantasmal Force to disrupt a conference and have your enemies kill each other? Is it REALLY overpowered compared to using Careful Spell on Hypnotic Pattern to capture an entire tribe of ogres to press gang into a war effort?

Again, you've never even demonstrated that this teleport trick is out of line, let alone addressed that for most of the Sorcerer's career the metamagic doesn't work on teleport and instead would just be used to increase the range of a normal attack spell, and so taking it straight to being unbalanced compared to other metamagic's is a bit bizarre. I mean, the new twin spell can let a 5th level sorcerer cast a 4th level spell! No one else can do that, but... is that really out of line?

If sorcerers are intended to have that spike on that spell (and maybe a couple of others) that should be a class feature. As it is it's a research test.

Metamagic is a class feature. How else do you think we got Distant Spell on the sorcerer? You can't declare it was unintended, again, this is all based on guesswork for why it was switched back.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Half the sorcerer subclasses don't have spells to add. That's the problem. Every single warlock subclass does have spells to add. So, yeah, I'd love to add the subclass spells from Draconic and Wild sorcerers. Can we have some?

I fully agree (other than wanting Wild punted from the PHB and preferably the game for slowing everything up) - and the thing is I don't think the warlock needs them.

For the record the reason the warlock doesn't is they don't need to split their spells across multiple spell levels. A sixth level blast-happy warlock might do all their blasting with Eldritch Blast and Hunger of Hadar. To try to match them in terms of consistent blasty output a sorcerer might want all of Firebolt, Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, Shatter, and Fireball because you can't down-cast and upcasting is generally bad.

Now? That's a strange thing to say. Most of those classes had very minor increases. Wizard's had a significant jump, as did Paladins, but Druids only gained two or three spells since they had subclasses before. Bard's only had two more. Clerics got one more.

I was mostly thinking of wizards, warlocks, and paladins. And post-Tasha's rangers (which are actually losing spells I think)

Metamagic is a class feature. How else do you think we got Distant Spell on the sorcerer? You can't declare it was unintended, again, this is all based on guesswork for why it was switched back.

I absolutely can think it was unintended. Because Teleport uses its range weirdly. If you asked me what the range stat of teleport referred to I'd have guessed it was how far you could teleport, not how far you could gather up people to be teleported from. It's niche examples like this they are trying to avoid by making the range increase reflect the original spell

 

[Stalker0]

And mounted combat usually leads to

• Nothing because the DM doesn't run fights in big enough areas
• Very boring fights where the mounted character makes a lot of attacks over several rounds and everyone else watches

But, you know... instead of ripping Mounted Combat from the game and spitting on its corpse, we could.... fix that. And let people enjoy the things they enjoy, without insisting they are pointless or ruin the game.

Your right, mounted combat has a number of problems as well.

And perhaps it could be fixed....but if they aren't going to go to the effort of doing that than its better to create mechanics that provide a good overall experience, rather than ones that can easily lead to boredom at the table.

 

[WanderingMystic]

Well, first I would note that a lack of thematic spells doesn't necessarily mean that the sorcerer is in a good place. You could use that same argument to say that a Poison-Themed sorcerer would be fine with only 15 spells, because there are less than a dozen poison themed spells.

And, in actuality, a sorcerer does need to be a generalist in a manner of speaking. If the only thing a sorcerer can do is cast damage spells... well, they kind of suck as an option. There are plenty of other casters that can deal damage, control the battlefield, and buff their allies or debuff their enemies or both!

And to a degree, there is a discussion of power. With 22 spells you have, what? Three spells of every level til 6, then one 7th, one 8th and one 9th? An extra one floating around there. Are we really going to try and pretend there are only three useful spells they might want at levels 2 and 3? You can try and argue many of those spells aren't thematic, but that literally never stops any other caster. It isn't thematic for a war cleric to cast Control Water, but they still can and many do when they find it to be a useful option to have.

Finally, your idea of thematic and my idea of thematic might not match. For example, in the dragon Sorcerer I gave them Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum and Mordenkainen's Secret Chest. I've had people tell me that doesn't match the theme, because my dragon sorcerer should only take fire and blast spells.

Thank you for the detailed answer, the main reason that I asked the question is because numerous people point out the aberrant and clockwork as better subclasses due to their 3xtra spells. WotC has already said that those subclasses got that bonus in exchange for what other subclasses got at 3rd level so an expanded list for each subclass is out of the question from a balance standpoint. For me I think the best solution is not more spells known but access to more spells and to be honest I love your idea of the shelter and chest as highly thematic for a dragon.

I don't think that a Sorcerer should only be a blaster, while I love warlocks they generally boil down to just a blaster in practice even though they have utility. I also agree that regardless of spell option the Sorcerer is still not in a great place but I want to see that come from them getting more control over spells and ways to tweak their unique abilities than just more spells. Speaking of your poison argument you would never have a juat poison theme, instead it would be serpents or maybe swamp. If I did that yes I would pick poison damage spells but maybe some animal spells, nature or/and druid spells.

For me I would want to see their spells dropped down to like 12-15 spells, then give them the 2 spells of levels 1-5 that they can pick from any spell list as long as it was thematic, maybe 3ven have them cost less spell points to cast to insentivice using thematic spells. That gives a total of 22 - 25 spells so 3 more at most; I think if they did that then they could afford to give that to base class then they would just need to change the ones from Tasha to give them new 3rd level abilities.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Your right, mounted combat has a number of problems as well.

And perhaps it could be fixed....but if they aren't going to go to the effort of doing that than its better to create mechanics that provide a good overall experience, rather than ones that can easily lead to boredom at the table.

Well, once they ban sharpshooter and reduce the longbow to only shooting 80 ft, then I'll be less upset by distant spell being needlessly nerfed.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Thank you for the detailed answer, the main reason that I asked the question is because numerous people point out the aberrant and clockwork as better subclasses due to their 3xtra spells. WotC has already said that those subclasses got that bonus in exchange for what other subclasses got at 3rd level so an expanded list for each subclass is out of the question from a balance standpoint. For me I think the best solution is not more spells known but access to more spells and to be honest I love your idea of the shelter and chest as highly thematic for a dragon.

I haven't heard that, but it would be utterly insane if true. Draconic sorcerer doesn't get nearly enough from +1 HP per level and some AC to cover the cost of 10 spells known.

I don't think that a Sorcerer should only be a blaster, while I love warlocks they generally boil down to just a blaster in practice even though they have utility. I also agree that regardless of spell option the Sorcerer is still not in a great place but I want to see that come from them getting more control over spells and ways to tweak their unique abilities than just more spells. Speaking of your poison argument you would never have a juat poison theme, instead it would be serpents or maybe swamp. If I did that yes I would pick poison damage spells but maybe some animal spells, nature or/and druid spells.

I agree sorcerer could still use a bit more tweaking.

I disagree that you wouldn't "just have poison" though. Character concepts can be very off-the-wall. It would take nothing to have a character whose themes are toxins and science based off some something from League of Legends that would make nature-theming completely atonal.

For me I would want to see their spells dropped down to like 12-15 spells, then give them the 2 spells of levels 1-5 that they can pick from any spell list as long as it was thematic, maybe 3ven have them cost less spell points to cast to insentivice using thematic spells. That gives a total of 22 - 25 spells so 3 more at most; I think if they did that then they could afford to give that to base class then they would just need to change the ones from Tasha to give them new 3rd level abilities.

See, I wouldn't drop the spells currently had. And I wouldn't say "you can pick spells as long as they are thematic." I'd make a list of thematic spells. They would never be perfect, but then I'd add a note about asking your DM to swap spells of the same level if they better fit your theme.

Frankly, this should be on every bonus spell list anyways.