D&D (2024) Sorcerer (Playtest 7)

[Stalker0]

1) Just because you think it is ridiculous has no bearing on it existing or making perfect sense within the fiction. Seriously, fantasy is full of shots way more insane than that.

2) How the heck are you getting 1200? Sharpshooter doesn't double your range?

I’ve explained mechanically why i think that kind of range is bad. Narratively it’s also not realistic, which is great as it means the flavor and mechanics can work together instead of against each other.

2) I had gotten the 3e feat and 5e confused.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Most metamagic makes spells better at what they do rather than gives them entirely different use cases. Your claim that it's what Metamagic should do stands in contradiction to the way WotC obviously wants it used.

The thing is that WotC seems (especially with Arcane Surge) to make sorcerers better at the spells they can cast. But it's a buff in power not transformational.

Yes, Arcane Surge now exists. It didn't before this playtest. It may not make it through this playtest. Metamagic has always existed, and has always brought the same arugment, every time.

And I've long critiqued WoTC for making a claim that metamagic could never back up, which is why I'm so frustrated to see such a good idea trashed. Especially on such weak reasoning as "it allows sorcerers, in niche situations, with specific spells, to be awesome"

And they are giving more spells to sorcerers. Turning them into a mid range number of spells - meaning they do have spare spells for utility.

And they still have fewer spells known (22) than:

Warlocks (~30 min)
Wizards (who can be argued to know upwards of 44 spells with Memorize and Ritual casting)
Clerics (36)
Bard (24 in Playtest 6, likely 26 in the end)
Druids (26+)
Paladins (31)
And Gloom Stalker Rangers (23)

So... yeah. They are getting more spells... and still they have the least amount of spells of any fullcaster you care to name, and a few half casters too.

Or a hostage rescue scenario and teleport a royal family. Or more. It's a much bigger get out of jail free card than an existing spell.

Great! Seriously, you are telling me it is a problem that the players are in a hostage situation, and the Sorcerer can solve it with a spell and metamagic option. Again, how is this bad?! "Because no spell currently in the game could solve it in this precise set of circumstances where the hostage is 60 ft away and the wizard can't reach them to use the teleport spell in the exact same way"

Yeah. They can't. This is something SORCERERS can do. Something UNIQUE to them and their metamagic. That sounds like something to celebrate, not nerf it because a 13th level sorcerer who happens to have teleport and happens to have distant spell and happens to find themselves in a hostage situation can actually use their unique abilities to solve a difficult problem.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I just think throwing bonus spells at every subclass is a bit of a blunt instrument, ideally different subclasses should offer up more variety.

It is a blunt instrument, but it is the instrument we need. Sorcerers have fewer spells than every single other fullcaster AND paladins. The closest is the Bard, who on top of their spells is a skill expert with non-spell party buffing abilities. Sorcerers are ONLY their spells. Everything they have revolve around spells.

And as seen with the instant top-tier ranking of the Clockwork and Aberrant mind, they desperately need more spells.

I also like the idea of Sorcerer as spell specialist, ie, fewer known spells but can do more with them. With Metamagic and now Innate Sorcery, the foundations are there, but not quite. Metamagic as the tool to augment spells makes sense, but access to Metamagic is extremely limited, and tbh, I want it to feel more like I am breaking rules, like the old Twin Spell did. Let Quicken Spell actually break the "no two leveled spells in a turn" rule. Give us a Metamagic that removes Concentration. Unerring Spell makes it so attack roll spells turn a miss into a hit and a hit into a critical hit. Whackier stuff like Vampiric Spell, apply this metamagic to a spell that deals Psychic, Poison or Necrotic damage and it now also heals the caster. Then, maybe give some Metamagics only to some subclasses. Like only Draconic Sorcerers can take Penetrating Spell, which is a metamagic that replicates the Elemental Adept feat. Obviously, Sorcery point costs would have to be revisited, and maybe some have to be level gated so you can't get them until 10th level, but I feel like Metamagic is an undeveloped area for the Sorcerer.

I don't agree in some of your specific examples, but I do agree in theory. I have some homebrew metamagics to allow fire spells to blind people, or poison spells to inflict the poisoned condition. Sorcerers need more metamagics that actually alter the spells, not just give them small bonuses.

 

[Kinematics]

Wizards (who can be argued to know upwards of 44 spells with Memorize and Ritual casting)

That's 52, now, with the bonus spells from the wizard subclasses.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I’ve explained mechanically why i think that kind of range is bad. Narratively it’s also not realistic, which is great as it means the flavor and mechanics can work together instead of against each other.

Robin Hood, Legolas, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Bullseye, Heracles, Artemis.

I don't care that you think it is "narratively unrealistic" that the best archer in the world can shoot a moving target at less than half the world record for the longest archery shot ever made (Don Brown, 1987, 1,222 ft). That's what makes them a legendary fictional archer. Not being "realistic". Heck, Legolas is just a normal wood elf, and some sources I'm seeing are arguing about him shooting a full LEAGUE with a SHORTBOW.

Let badass archers be badass. Mechanically, it is only boring if you let it be. There are plenty of things that can be done to mitigate it if you somehow end up forgetting you are dealing with an archer at that distance.

2) I had gotten the 3e feat and 5e confused.

Ah, fair enough.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That's 52, now, with the bonus spells from the wizard subclasses.

Ah, I haven't read the wizard subclasses yet. Pacing myself.

 

[WanderingMystic]

So could someone explain to my why people think more spells for a Sorcerer is nessisary? Looking a the storm Sorcerer I found less than 30 spells that I would take that fit that type of a thematic and while 22 might mean that I had to exchange afew spells out as I gained levels for similar spells that were higher levels, or not take a spell or two that were only tangentaly thematic.

More is not nessisarily better. A Sorcerer dose not need to be a generalist, they do not need a huge spell list, what they do need is the ability to pick from a huge list of spells. The great thing about the Aberrant is that they have access to mind affecting and psionic spells that are usually Wizard, bard or Cleric spells; then as they increase in level they can improve those types of spells

 

[Stalker0]

Let badass archers be badass. Mechanically, it is only boring if you let it be.

Again though, at the end of the day, what this range usually results in is the following:

• Nothing, because your DM doesn't run fights at those ranges.
• Very boring fights where the archer makes a lot of attacks over several rounds and everyone else watches.

 

[Remathilis]

So could someone explain to my why people think more spells for a Sorcerer is nessisary? Looking a the storm Sorcerer I found less than 30 spells that I would take that fit that type of a thematic and while 22 might mean that I had to exchange afew spells out as I gained levels for similar spells that were higher levels, or not take a spell or two that were only tangentaly thematic.

More is not nessisarily better. A Sorcerer dose not need to be a generalist, they do not need a huge spell list, what they do need is the ability to pick from a huge list of spells. The great thing about the Aberrant is that they have access to mind affecting and psionic spells that are usually Wizard, bard or Cleric spells; then as they increase in level they can improve those types of spells

You answered your own question: the sorcerer list is crap because having access to spells makes wizards a special boi, so several themes aren't supported well. Storm and shadow need to poach spells from other lists related to their themes, and divine needs more choices because even with the cleric list, they can't even get cleric spells let alone a hybrid of Sorc and cleric.

 

[Pauln6]

So could someone explain to my why people think more spells for a Sorcerer is nessisary? Looking a the storm Sorcerer I found less than 30 spells that I would take that fit that type of a thematic and while 22 might mean that I had to exchange afew spells out as I gained levels for similar spells that were higher levels, or not take a spell or two that were only tangentaly thematic.

More is not nessisarily better. A Sorcerer dose not need to be a generalist, they do not need a huge spell list, what they do need is the ability to pick from a huge list of spells. The great thing about the Aberrant is that they have access to mind affecting and psionic spells that are usually Wizard, bard or Cleric spells; then as they increase in level they can improve those types of spells

I think for me is the inability to build a satisfactory themed Sorcerer because the standard list is functional but not intriguing. Adding themed spells to the list helps add flavour.