D&D (2024) Sorcerer (Playtest 7)

[Chaosmancer]

Bows also have too much range as well imo, hitting a moving target at 600 ft in armor is beyond ridiculous, not to mention the 1200 ft for sharpshooter.

1) Just because you think it is ridiculous has no bearing on it existing or making perfect sense within the fiction. Seriously, fantasy is full of shots way more insane than that.

2) How the heck are you getting 1200? Sharpshooter doesn't double your range?

 

[Remathilis]

I am probably one of the few who don't want more spells on the dragon and wild magic sorcerer. As long as they improve the sorcerer spell list they are fine. To me sorcerers are specialist who focus on a small selection of spells but learn how to make them do more.

Dragons should have absolutely gotten a breath weapon attack and I told them so in the survey, I also told them that the dragon needed to have a draconic claw melee cantrip or something like that.

The issue is that Pandora's box was opened in Tasha's, and the stark contrast between draconic and wild (which despite some tweaks are fairly close to 2014) and aberrant and clockwork (verbatim from Tasha's) is a stark contrast. You are going to have to be very sold on the idea of Wild Surges to forgo a bunch of semi-customizable free spells, and draconic having some defensive capacities that keeps them still very squishy isn't enough.

And since sorcerers can't have nice things or the wizard gets a sad, we're stuck with a sub-par spell list.

Sadly, I expect Aberrant, clockwork and lunar to be the top tier, followed by divine, and then the rest of the pack (with storm at the bottom).

 

[Neonchameleon]

Why is 1 Sorcerery Point too low of a cost? Sure, increasing the range of a teleport is more powerful than increasing the range of a cantrip... but casting Teleportation itself is more powerful than casting a cantrip. That's why teleportation already takes a 7th level slot.

Because getting out people from 400ft away can short circuit an entire adventure. If teleporting people just about in reach is a 7th level spell teleporting ones in a pretty long distance should be at least upcast to 8th, possibly 9th level because it doesn't make the spell better it conceptually changes it.

And if it is the power of the spell that matters, well... then all of metamagic is broken, because Careful spell on Shatter shouldn't cost the same as Careful Spell on Fire Storm, because Shatter is a much weaker spell.

But both fundamentally do the same thing rather than fundamentally changing the use case.

Why is that a bad choice? There are actually many reasons it is a GREAT choice, it counteracts a major downside of the cantrip.

Because it's a warlock example and Eldritch Blast is on the table. And EB isn't in isolation much better than firebolt (yes Force > Fire but it's pretty trivial) but takes damage boosts and damage procs better than any other cantrip.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Draconic is easy enough and as you suggest. Wild I'd rather see abolished entirely - but yes, spells like Chaos Bolt and Confusion. I'm not sure there are nearly enough of them.

Scatter would be a great option, if it were a level lower.

My lists were

Dragon:
1st - Absorb Elements (includes poison damage), Identify
3rd - Dragon's Breath, Alter Self
5th - Fear, Fly
7th - Elemental Bane, Leonmund's Secret Chest
9th - Creation, Dominate Person

Notation: I have modified Elemental Bane to such less.

Wild:
1st - Chaos Bolt, Silent Image
3rd - Enhance Ability, Mirror Image
5th - Nondetection, Blink
7th - Polymorph, Confusion
9th - Seeming, Modify Memory

Notation: A lot of the theme I was going for here was "altering reality" or "bringing in echoes of other realities" to represent the probability manipulation and chaos of the sorcerer.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Because getting out people from 400ft away can short circuit an entire adventure. If teleporting people just about in reach is a 7th level spell teleporting ones in a pretty long distance should be at least upcast to 8th, possibly 9th level because it doesn't make the spell better it conceptually changes it.

If your limit is "this spell can short circuit an adventure" I have some very very bad news for you about magic in DnD. /s

More seriously though, yeah, you are again describing EXACTLY what metamagic should DO! Again, the entire reason that sorcerers have fewer spells, less access to spells, and worse spells than the wizard is because they are, how was it just put? "Sorcerers are specialist who focus on a small selection of spells but learn how to make them do more."

That is the drum that has been beat for 10 years, and here we have an example of just that, taking a spell and learning how to do more with it, to the point it is capable of doing something new and exciting.... and therefore we can never allow the sorcerer to do that?!

And you seem to be forgetting the other limits of Teleport. Namely, the number of creatures it can target does not change. So, at BEST this is a sorcerer able to teleport a scattered party away from a threat... this is not only good, it seems like it could be a campaign moment where the sorcerer can actually shine for being uniquely capable of doing that, rather than "well, I blasted harder in combat"

But both fundamentally do the same thing rather than fundamentally changing the use case.

And teleport still... teleports. It just allows you to grab people who might have otherwise been out of your reach. That is still fundamentally doing the same thing, just like hitting a 20 ft area for 3d8 is the conceptually the same as hitting 100 square ft area for 12d8 or whatever it is.

Because it's a warlock example and Eldritch Blast is on the table. And EB isn't in isolation much better than firebolt (yes Force > Fire but it's pretty trivial) but takes damage boosts and damage procs better than any other cantrip.

None of which talks about Poison Spray, but since your argument rests solely on "But Eldritch Blast is the only possible choice" then we had best stop here on that tangent.

 

[Neonchameleon]

If your limit is "this spell can short circuit an adventure" I have some very very bad news for you about magic in DnD. /s

More seriously though, yeah, you are again describing EXACTLY what metamagic should DO

Most metamagic makes spells better at what they do rather than gives them entirely different use cases. Your claim that it's what Metamagic should do stands in contradiction to the way WotC obviously wants it used.

! Again, the entire reason that sorcerers have fewer spells, less access to spells, and worse spells than the wizard is because they are, how was it just put? "Sorcerers are specialist who focus on a small selection of spells but learn how to make them do more."

The thing is that WotC seems (especially with Arcane Surge) to make sorcerers better at the spells they can cast. But it's a buff in power not transformational. And they are giving more spells to sorcerers. Turning them into a mid range number of spells - meaning they do have spare spells for utility.

And you seem to be forgetting the other limits of Teleport. Namely, the number of creatures it can target does not change. So, at BEST this is a sorcerer able to teleport a scattered party away from a threat...

Or a hostage rescue scenario and teleport a royal family. Or more. It's a much bigger get out of jail free card than an existing spell.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The issue is that Pandora's box was opened in Tasha's, and the stark contrast between draconic and wild (which despite some tweaks are fairly close to 2014) and aberrant and clockwork (verbatim from Tasha's) is a stark contrast. You are going to have to be very sold on the idea of Wild Surges to forgo a bunch of semi-customizable free spells, and draconic having some defensive capacities that keeps them still very squishy isn't enough.

And since sorcerers can't have nice things or the wizard gets a sad, we're stuck with a sub-par spell list.

Sadly, I expect Aberrant, clockwork and lunar to be the top tier, followed by divine, and then the rest of the pack (with storm at the bottom).

The key thing to remember about the "Pandora's Box" is that pre-Tasha's sorcerers were the worst primary caster and it wasn't even close. The Pandora's Box that was opened was "knowing enough spells to make them do their job and have some utility". Draconic should be a gish. And I want Wild gone. But there's no reason not to rework Divine and Shadow along the lines of Tasha's - and rework Storm from top to bottom so it doesn't get you killed.

 

[Remathilis]

The key thing to remember about the "Pandora's Box" is that pre-Tasha's sorcerers were the worst primary caster and it wasn't even close. The Pandora's Box that was opened was "knowing enough spells to make them do their job and have some utility". Draconic should be a gish. And I want Wild gone. But there's no reason not to rework Divine and Shadow along the lines of Tasha's - and rework Storm from top to bottom so it doesn't get you killed.

Oh, I had NO problem with bonus spells; I'm fighting for all subs to get them. Barring that, they need far better abilities than they have right now. What I will disagree with you on is shadow not needing bonus spells: while hound of ill omen is potent, darkvision and see-in-your-own-darkness aren't all that compelling of abilities. Further, shadow needs some really good shadowy magic (illusions, enchantments, darkness, and necromancy) and most of the best or thematic ones are locked in the wizard or warlock list. Ditto storm, who could use some poaches from druids and wizards.

Regardless, I feel if they DON'T do something to boost the older subs, aberrant and clockwork will overtake the others just in terms of utility.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Oh, I had NO problem with bonus spells; I'm fighting for all subs to get them. Barring that, they need far better abilities than they have right now. What I will disagree with you on is shadow not needing bonus spells:

If I've ever said or implied that the shadow doesn't need bonus spells I apologise.

while hound of ill omen is potent, darkvision and see-in-your-own-darkness aren't all that compelling of abilities. Further, shadow needs some really good shadowy magic (illusions, enchantments, darkness, and necromancy) and most of the best or thematic ones are locked in the wizard or warlock list. Ditto storm, who could use some poaches from druids and wizards.

Clockwork and Aberrant poach. I'd assume Storm and Shadow would do likewise.

Lunar doesn't appear to have much presence. I think people prefer clockwork for their default because it's less faffy.

Regardless, I feel if they DON'T do something to boost the older subs, aberrant and clockwork will overtake the others just in terms of utility.

I don't think anyone disagrees?

 

[Vael]

I just think throwing bonus spells at every subclass is a bit of a blunt instrument, ideally different subclasses should offer up more variety.

I also like the idea of Sorcerer as spell specialist, ie, fewer known spells but can do more with them. With Metamagic and now Innate Sorcery, the foundations are there, but not quite. Metamagic as the tool to augment spells makes sense, but access to Metamagic is extremely limited, and tbh, I want it to feel more like I am breaking rules, like the old Twin Spell did. Let Quicken Spell actually break the "no two leveled spells in a turn" rule. Give us a Metamagic that removes Concentration. Unerring Spell makes it so attack roll spells turn a miss into a hit and a hit into a critical hit. Whackier stuff like Vampiric Spell, apply this metamagic to a spell that deals Psychic, Poison or Necrotic damage and it now also heals the caster. Then, maybe give some Metamagics only to some subclasses. Like only Draconic Sorcerers can take Penetrating Spell, which is a metamagic that replicates the Elemental Adept feat. Obviously, Sorcery point costs would have to be revisited, and maybe some have to be level gated so you can't get them until 10th level, but I feel like Metamagic is an undeveloped area for the Sorcerer.