Special Conversion Thread: Lycanthropes and their ilk

[Cleon]

Hmmm, let's just think about damage first. We also have to worry about appropriate damage by size, too. Here's a proposal: dragon form has the same damage by attack as a dragon of the same size. Hybrid bite and claw attacks have damage equal to the claw of a dragon of the same size. And wing/tail slaps have the same damage as those attacks for a dragon of the same size.

The start of that looks fine, but if we give the hybrid form wing & tail attacks I'd treat them as a size smaller than the dragon form.

 

[freyar]

I like that! So, maybe this:

Attacks: Same as the base creature or base dragon, depending on which form the weredragon is using. A weredragon in hybrid form gains two claw attacks and a bite attack as natural weapons. A Large or larger hybrid form gains a wing attack, and a Huge or larger hybrid form gains a tail slap attack, if the base dragon has those attacks.

Damage: Same as base creature or base dragon, depending on which form the weredragon is using. In hybrid form, the claw and bite attacks have the damage of a dragon of the same size, while wing and tail slap attacks have the damage of a dragon one size category smaller.

 

[Cleon]

I like that! So, maybe this:

Attacks: Same as the base creature or base dragon, depending on which form the weredragon is using. A weredragon in hybrid form gains two claw attacks and a bite attack as natural weapons. A Large or larger hybrid form gains a wing attack, and a Huge or larger hybrid form gains a tail slap attack, if the base dragon has those attacks.

Damage: Same as base creature or base dragon, depending on which form the weredragon is using. In hybrid form, the claw and bite attacks have the damage of a dragon of the same size, while wing and tail slap attacks have the damage of a dragon one size category smaller.

I thought we were making the Hybrid form's bite do damage as a one size smaller dragon too. That is:

Damage: Same as base creature or base dragon, depending on which form the weredragon is using. In hybrid form, the claw attacks have the damage of a dragon of the same size, while the bite, wing and tail slap attacks have the damage of a dragon one size category smaller.
​

Also, are you against Tail Sweep as well as Crush? If the hybrid form has a Tail Slap attack I'm fine giving it Tail Sweep at Gargantuan, like so:

Attacks: Same as the base creature or base dragon, depending on which form the weredragon is using. A weredragon in hybrid form gains two claw attacks and a bite attack as natural weapons. A Large or larger hybrid form gains a wing attack, a Huge or larger hybrid form gains a tail slap attack, and a Gargantuan or larger hybrid form gains a tail sweep attack, if the base dragon has those attacks.

Damage: Same as base creature or base dragon, depending on which form the weredragon is using. In hybrid form, the claw attacks and tail sweep attack have the damage of a dragon of the same size, while the bite, wing and tail slap attacks have the damage of a dragon one size category smaller.
​

Acceptable?

 

[freyar]

Yes, that's fine, I think. Although the tail sweep (or crush) attack is a bit academic --- there are no SRD true dragon age categories with LA that are large enough to have those attacks, and I'm not sure there are any other dragons like that anywhere else!

 

[Cleon]

Yes, that's fine, I think. Although the tail sweep (or crush) attack is a bit academic --- there are no SRD true dragon age categories with LA that are large enough to have those attacks, and I'm not sure there are any other dragons like that anywhere else!

It's the principle of the thing!

Also, you're forgetting that the template includes Giants, so a Huge giant can turn into a Huge dragon even if the base dragon is a Tiny wyrmling:

In dragon form, a weredragon can be the size of the base creature, the base dragon, or any size between the two, but defaults to whichever size is bigger.

Updating the Weredragon (True Drakanthrope) Working Draft.

 

[freyar]

Right, but it also says that dragon form only has the attacks of the base dragon (no matter the size), and the same for the hybrid form. So we can leave it in, but the way we have it written is not going to allow those attacks for any true dragon I know of.

What do we need next for these?

 

[Cleon]

Right, but it also says that dragon form only has the attacks of the base dragon (no matter the size), and the same for the hybrid form. So we can leave it in, but the way we have it written is not going to allow those attacks for any true dragon I know of.

A True Dragons' natural attacks depend on their size category not their LA, so I'm unclear why you think the current wording doesn't allow a weredragon in Large dragon form to use wings and tail slap attacks.

Would rewording it to be more explicit help?

Come to think of it, the Damage should be keyed to the dragon form's actual size instead of the base dragon. As written, a Cloud Giant Wyrmling Weredragon would only do Wyrmling damage regardless of the size of its dragon form.

How's this:

Attacks: Depends on which form the weredragon is using. Its default humanoid or giant form has the same attacks as the base creature. In dragon form, it has the same attacks as a true dragon of the weredragon's dragon variety and size category (see Size & Type). If its dragon form is larger than the base dragon it can gain additional natural attacks according to its size, such as the tail slap attack of a Large dragon.

A weredragon in hybrid form gains two claw attacks and a bite attack as natural weapons. A Large or larger hybrid form gains two wings attack, a Huge or larger hybrid form gains a tail slap attack, and a Gargantuan or larger hybrid form gains a tail sweep attack, if the base dragon has those attacks.

Damage: Same as base creature or base dragon, depending on which form the weredragon is using. As a dragon, it does damage according to the size of its dragon form rather than the size of the base dragon (as per a true dragon's Dragon Space/Reach, Attacks, and Damage). In hybrid form, the claw attacks and tail sweep attack have the damage of a dragon of the same size, while the bite, wing and tail slap attacks have the damage of a dragon one size category smaller.
​

What do we need next for these?

I was expecting to just work through it in order.

Which means Special Attacks once we've finished arguing debating the Attacks and Damage.

 

[freyar]

I think you are not writing what you mean. The Attacks line says "if the base dragon has those attacks." The Creating a Weredragon section says "The base dragon must belong to an age category with a Level Adjustment." At least among SRD dragons, I'm pretty sure that there are no age categories with an LA that are large enough to have a tail sweep or crush. (And generally dragon age categories that are large enough are too tough to have LA.)

So, as written, even if the weredragon can go to Colossal size hybrid form, the base dragon won't have those attacks, so neither will the hybrid. But I guess you would prefer to change that. You could just use the same line as for the dragon form: "If its hybrid form is larger than the base dragon it can gain additional natural attacks according to its size, such as the tail slap attack of a Large dragon."

 

[Cleon]

I think you are not writing what you mean. The Attacks line says "if the base dragon has those attacks." The Creating a Weredragon section says "The base dragon must belong to an age category with a Level Adjustment." At least among SRD dragons, I'm pretty sure that there are no age categories with an LA that are large enough to have a tail sweep or crush. (And generally dragon age categories that are large enough are too tough to have LA.)

So, as written, even if the weredragon can go to Colossal size hybrid form, the base dragon won't have those attacks, so neither will the hybrid. But I guess you would prefer to change that. You could just use the same line as for the dragon form: "If its hybrid form is larger than the base dragon it can gain additional natural attacks according to its size, such as the tail slap attack of a Large dragon."

That seems overly elaborate.

Wouldn't it be easier changing the last sentence to "if the dragon form has those attacks" or "provided it has those attacks in dragon form"?

Like so:

A weredragon in hybrid form gains two claw attacks and a bite attack as natural weapons. A Large or larger hybrid form gains two wings attack, a Huge or larger hybrid form gains a tail slap attack, and a Gargantuan or larger hybrid form gains a tail sweep attack, provided it has those attacks in dragon form.
​