Stat requirements

[Testament]

The strength focusing fighter loses some his flavor. Those feats should reamain in the realm of those with a high stat to begin with, put lots of points into it while leveling, used manuals/tomes/wishes to gain inherent bonuses, and/or took a few Great [Stat] feats.

Then they can almost never be acquired though. Lets say you start with a Wis 18, and sink every boost into it on the way to 20th level, getting you a 23. A Manual +5 gets you to 28, representing a truly massive wealth investment. You still need 2 more points.

And at any rate, an inherent bonus is still a bonus from an item. Why do they count?

 

[KarinsDad]

Then they can almost never be acquired though. Lets say you start with a Wis 18, and sink every boost into it on the way to 20th level, getting you a 23. A Manual +5 gets you to 28, representing a truly massive wealth investment. You still need 2 more points.

And at any rate, an inherent bonus is still a bonus from an item. Why do they count?

Because they are not magic anymore once cast. They are instantaneous (read the Wish spell) and become an inherent part of the character, just like a racial bonus.


Additionally, there are only three Epic Feats which are really difficult to acquire, Dragon Wild Shape Wis 30, Self Concealment Dex 30, and Vorpal Strike Str 25 / Wis 25. However, even these are attainable because you still get a +1 to an Ability score every 4 levels past 20th.

All the rest of the feats (and there about 60) with stat requirements have values of 25 or less. Hence, the "You can only acquire Epic Feats with the items" argument is inaccurate.

Considering that the Epic book also has over 100 DC skill attempts and such, there are a lot of game elements including Epic Spells that cannot realistically be acquired at all, instead of merely difficult.


The book is precisely that: Epic. You have to go WAY beyond normal to get there, and a +6 Cloak that allows you to qualify for a feat is not above and beyond.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Yep, it is completely superfluous. If someone asks you "how do scrolls work" do you point them to the UMD description?

Inconceivable. I'm amazed that this concept still eludes you. You are still asking the wrong question. It's not "how do scrolls work", it's "how does UMD work for reading scrolls". Really, it's not rocket science.

Can you move silently without an action? No. Hence it is part of the underlying action type (in most cases, a move action). For the record, there is no such thing as a non-action, there are events that are not actions (PHB, page 139). They are "an inherent part of doing something else". They are part of the underlying action.

Bingo, you finally found it. Now you understand what I'm talking about.

Leveling up is not part of any underlying action. It is not a "non-action" as defined by the rules. It is not a standard action, a move action, a full-round action, a free action, a swift action, or not an action. However, it takes place at a defined moment in game time (before it happens, the character is X level, after X+1 level). Hence, it is not an action, but an event.

Wait, you just said that there is no such thing as a non-action, but now you say there's a non-action as defined by the rules? Try to be more consistent, please. So, where's the definition for the game term 'event' and please point out where levelling up is defined as such. Oh, you can't. That's right, you're just making stuff up.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The rules only require that you have an ability score that meets the prerequisite, it does not put any requirements on how you get that ability score.

Agreed, but the problem is that levelling up (i.e. attempting to take advantage of that ability score) is not defined sufficiently. I have just as much backing by the rules to claim that it's instantaneous (e.g. glass, Storm Raven, Hyp), as I do claiming that it's not, possibly consuming 'training' during the whole previous level, or levels, or maybe resting a whole night, or training for a couple of weeks in game time.

So, sure, drinking a potion of bull's strength could qualify me for Power Attack, but only if I can 'level up' within a 3 minute span.

 

[Caliban]

Agreed, but the problem is that levelling up (i.e. attempting to take advantage of that ability score) is not defined sufficiently. I have just as much backing by the rules to claim that it's instantaneous (e.g. glass, Storm Raven, Hyp), as I do claiming that it's not, possibly consuming 'training' during the whole previous level, or levels, or maybe resting a whole night, or training for a couple of weeks in game time.

I covered that in my post. PC's train "off camera" between adventures. However you want to define it, it's not instantaneous. It's only "not defined sufficiently" if you are looking for wiggle room to "work the system" with.

So, sure, drinking a potion of bull's strength could qualify me for Power Attack, but only if I can 'level up' within a 3 minute span.

Not under any reasonable interpretation of the rules. I'm not interested in debating what I consider to be obviously unreasonable interpretations (such as those that involve doing a level's worth of training in 3 minutes). If that works for you, that's great. It doesn't work for me though.

This is a game, not a legal proceeding.

 

[Cabral]

Actually, my wife and I dug out our copy of D&D Heroes last night and it reminded me of this thread. In the game, the number of points you get for your abilities is based on Charisma so we pass around a necklace of charisma +6 and a ring of Charisma +4 when we are close to levelling. (Both items stack. It's a different scale. My fighter's AC is 109, I think)

 

[Caliban]

Actually, my wife and I dug out our copy of D&D Heroes last night and it reminded me of this thread. In the game, the number of points you get for your abilities is based on Charisma so we pass around a necklace of charisma +6 and a ring of Charisma +4 when we are close to levelling. (Both items stack. It's a different scale. My fighter's AC is 109, I think)

Yes, computer games often let you get away with stuff like that. It's a limitation of the system.

This is not a computer game.

 

[Elephant]

The stat enhancing items say "when in a character’s possession, it adds a +2, +4, or +6 enhancement bonus to her [specified ability] score." The only listed limitation to this increase is the headband of Intelligence. There is no limitation of any kind listed for any other consequence of an increased ability score. If there was intended to be a limitation for feats, then that would be included. It is not. Therefore, your argument is merely an attempt to extrapolate an exception into being a general rule, which is an illogical method of rules analysis.

An enhancement bonus isn't a score. If my fighter has a STR of 11 and puts on Gauntlets of Ogre Power, his Strength score is still 11. The enhancement bonus of the item doesn't change the base score.

 

[Storm Raven]

Inconceivable. I'm amazed that this concept still eludes you. You are still asking the wrong question. It's not "how do scrolls work", it's "how does UMD work for reading scrolls". Really, it's not rocket science.

And the UMD description cannot change whow scrolls work. They are activated. The fact that the UMD text is wrong is not relevant to how scrolls actually work. You look to the scroll description for that.

Bingo, you finally found it. Now you understand what I'm talking about.

Given that the text contradicts what you are 'talking about", no I don't.

Wait, you just said that there is no such thing as a non-action, but now you say there's a non-action as defined by the rules? Try to be more consistent, please. So, where's the definition for the game term 'event' and please point out where levelling up is defined as such. Oh, you can't. That's right, you're just making stuff up.

There is no such thing as a "non-action". There is "not an action". This is not an action in and of itself. If leveling up "something that takes place" or "an occurence". Yep. Is it any kind of defined action? No. Thus it is an event. This is simple English.

 

[Storm Raven]

An enhancement bonus isn't a score. If my fighter has a STR of 11 and puts on Gauntlets of Ogre Power, his Strength score is still 11. The enhancement bonus of the item doesn't change the base score.

No, the score is now 13. The fact that it is enhanced does not make it any less a score of 13. And enhancement bonus modifies the underlying attribute. Look at a +3 chain shirt. It does not provide a +4 armor bonus and a +3 enhancement bonus to AC. It provides a +7 armor bonus to AC. Similarly, a character with an 11 Strength score and geuntlets of ogre power does not have an 11 Strength and a +2 enhancement bonus. He has a 13 Strength.