Stat requirements

[Infiniti2000]

There is no such thing as a "non-action". There is "not an action". This is not an action in and of itself.

Obviously, we're talking about the same thing here. If you prefer, however, search this thread for "non-action" and replace with "not an action."

If leveling up "something that takes place" or "an occurence". Yep. Is it any kind of defined action? No. Thus it is an event. This is simple English.

It is either "Not an Action" (or some actual action type) or it cannot be done by the character. I think you have lost focus on the debate. It was put forward that a character could choose to level-up mid-combat. If so, you need to explain what action this takes.

And the UMD description cannot change whow scrolls work. They are activated. The fact that the UMD text is wrong is not relevant to how scrolls actually work. You look to the scroll description for that.

So now your entire stance boils down into claiming that the rules are in error. If the rules are in error then Storm Raven has a case. If the rules are not in error, then Storm Raven doesn't have a case. Yup, I think we're done here.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Not under any reasonable interpretation of the rules. I'm not interested in debating what I consider to be obviously unreasonable interpretations (such as those that involve doing a level's worth of training in 3 minutes). If that works for you, that's great. It doesn't work for me though.

I agree with you 101.3%, Caliban. I was just clarifying the reason for this debate.

 

[Storm Raven]

Obviously, we're talking about the same thing here. If you prefer, however, search this thread for "non-action" and replace with "not an action."

You misunderstand. As defined in the rules, leveling up is not "not an action", because it is not part of some underlying action.

It is either "Not an Action" (or some actual action type) or it cannot be done by the character. I think you have lost focus on the debate. It was put forward that a character could choose to level-up mid-combat. If so, you need to explain what action this takes.

It it not an action type. Things can happen in game that are not covered by the action type rules. This has been pointed out to you many times, and yet you are too stuck in the "must be a defined action" mentality to figure this out.

So now your entire stance boils down into claiming that the rules are in error. If the rules are in error then Storm Raven has a case. If the rules are not in error, then Storm Raven doesn't have a case. Yup, I think we're done here.

The rules are not in error. A level up is simply not defined by the "action types" rules. It is an event - it takes place at a discrete moment in time, and has defined game consequences. However, it is not defined by the action type parameters. Thus, it is an event.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The rules are not in error.

The fact that the UMD text is wrong...

You're not very consistent.

 

[Storm Raven]

You're not very consistent.

The rules aren't in error with respect to what levelling is. Depite your contortions and evasions, you still haven't been able to define any sort of action type that levelling up fits. You also have not been able to argue that it is not something that happens at a discrete point of time in-game. If not an action type, then it is an event.

The UMD text contradicts the scroll text with respect to how scrolls work. The text concerning how scrolls work trumps the UMD text with respect to how scrolls work.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The rules aren't in error with respect to what levelling is. Depite your contortions and evasions, you still haven't been able to define any sort of action type that levelling up fits.

Of course I haven't. Why would I? Perhaps you've lost focus and failed to realize that I'm not the one claiming it can be performed in a combat.

You also have not been able to argue that it is not something that happens at a discrete point of time in-game. If not an action type, then it is an event.

I never claimed to argue that. I said it was undefined. You said it was a "discrete event" that happens in-game. Despite your frivolous side-tracking, you have yet to define 'event' in game terms and how the character/PC can perform it, such that your definition is substantiated by the rules. Either you need to do this or agree that it's undefined.

The UMD text contradicts the scroll text with respect to how scrolls work. The text concerning how scrolls work trumps the UMD text with respect to how scrolls work.

I heard you the first time. So, are the (scroll) rules in error or not? You said it both ways and then claimed that we weren't even talking about scrolls (i.e. 'with respect to levelling').

 

[IanB]

Additionally, there are only three Epic Feats which are really difficult to acquire, Dragon Wild Shape Wis 30, Self Concealment Dex 30, and Vorpal Strike Str 25 / Wis 25. However, even these are attainable because you still get a +1 to an Ability score every 4 levels past 20th.

All the rest of the feats (and there about 60) with stat requirements have values of 25 or less. Hence, the "You can only acquire Epic Feats with the items" argument is inaccurate.

Considering that the Epic book also has over 100 DC skill attempts and such, there are a lot of game elements including Epic Spells that cannot realistically be acquired at all, instead of merely difficult.

Those feats that require 25s are often not reasonably obtainable at what would appear to be their intended level under a point buy system. For the most part, only the feats which focus on the primary stat of a character class that would buy it are normally obtainable.

Let us consider Legendary Tracker, which requires ranks in Knowledge (nature) and Survival requiring level 27. It would seem clear that the intent behind this feat is that it is for rangers. It requires wisdom 25. In order for a 28 point buy ranger to qualify for this feat at level 27, it needs to start with a 14 wisdom and spend either all of its level up increases on wisdom and obtain a +5 inherent bonus, or it has to spend even more points on wisdom to start with, and still spend most of its level up increases on wisdom. Any system where a ranger, a combat class, is required to spend all or most of its level up increases on wisdom in order to meet the requirements for the epic feat covering its most iconic ability has issues.

Let's look at keen strike. It requires strength and wisdom of 23. I'm going to suggest that 24 is the target level for this one, as it is a prerequisite for vorpal strike, which I would suggest has a target level of 27, since it is the top monk feat available and the hardest-to-obtain feats with skill requirements are all targeted at level 27 (except for several of the item creation feats, which IMO also need a fix for divine casters as far as qualification goes.)

In order to qualify for keen strike at level 24 our 28 point buy monk would have to start with a 15 strength and a 15 wisdom, get an inherent book bonus for both stats, and split his stat gains across strength and wisdom equally, totally ignoring the other important monk stats of dexterity and constitution. If he instead wants to get vorpal strike at 27, when everyone else is getting their cool endgame feats, he has to start with a 17 in strength and wisdom, leaving him a generous 2 points to spend on upping his dexterity and constitution to 9 each.

How about improved arrow of death, which expects arcane archers to get to a 19 wisdom, a stat which they never needed until hitting epic levels? Are they supposed to sink a bunch of resources into it on the off chance that the campaign lasts long enough to hit epic levels?

Zone of animation is entertaining, where the evil cleric has to focus on charisma in order to hit 25 and ignore his primary spellcasting stat.

My favorite example, though, is incite rage. This requires a barbarian to get to a charisma of 25. I'll spare you all the details of the world's wussiest barbarian, who had to spend all of his level up increases on boosting his charisma...

The simplest "fix" for these issues is allowing essentially permanent item bonuses to meet requirements - of course, my contention is that this is RAW, not a fix.

 

[Elephant]

No, the score is now 13. The fact that it is enhanced does not make it any less a score of 13. And enhancement bonus modifies the underlying attribute. Look at a +3 chain shirt. It does not provide a +4 armor bonus and a +3 enhancement bonus to AC. It provides a +7 armor bonus to AC. Similarly, a character with an 11 Strength score and geuntlets of ogre power does not have an 11 Strength and a +2 enhancement bonus. He has a 13 Strength.

Interesting. Would you also argue that a 1st level wizard who places 4 ranks in Spellcraft and takes the feat "Skill Focus: Spellcraft" now has 7 ranks? Or does he have 4 ranks with a +3 bonus?

Or how about someone using a Third Eye of Concentrate? Would you argue that he now has n+10 ranks in Concentration, where n is the number of points he's put into the skill?

As to AC - it's a collection of multiple bonuses. Base AC is 10, but your adjusted score is based upon several different bonuses - armor, shield, dex, dodge, size, etc. The magical chain shirt in your example has a +4 armor bonus, coupled with a +3 enhancement bonus. Not a +7 armor bonus.

 

[IanB]

Interesting. Would you also argue that a 1st level wizard who places 4 ranks in Spellcraft and takes the feat "Skill Focus: Spellcraft" now has 7 ranks? Or does he have 4 ranks with a +3 bonus?

Or how about someone using a Third Eye of Concentrate? Would you argue that he now has n+10 ranks in Concentration, where n is the number of points he's put into the skill?

As to AC - it's a collection of multiple bonuses. Base AC is 10, but your adjusted score is based upon several different bonuses - armor, shield, dex, dodge, size, etc. The magical chain shirt in your example has a +4 armor bonus, coupled with a +3 enhancement bonus. Not a +7 armor bonus.

1) Ranks are not the same as a bonus type. They work differently from everything else and are not relevant to this discussion.

2) Storm Raven is right about how enhancement bonuses work. See the barkskin spell for a nice quick explanation of this. It gives an enhancement bonus to the natural armor bonus; thus the natural armor bonus increases by the amount of the enhancement bonus.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The magical chain shirt in your example has a +4 armor bonus, coupled with a +3 enhancement bonus. Not a +7 armor bonus.

Incorrect - otherwise, you couldn't benefit from a magical shield and magical armor at the same time.

Their is a +3 enhancement bonus - but it applies to the chain shirt's Armor bonus. The chain shirt, then, provides a +7 (+4 Armor base, +3 Enhancement) Armor bonus to AC. The character wearing the armor only ever sees the +7 Armor bonus.