Stat requirements

[KarinsDad]

I do. One modifies a roll, one modifies a static attribute of some sort (armor bonus, strength.) The game seems to handle those differently, from what I can tell.

You add up all of your modifiers and penalties to whatever you are discussing and then that total modifies the roll.

For example, you do not say that the Strength modifier modifies a Climb roll. You say the Climb skill total modifies a Climb roll.

The game does not handle them differently, the game handles all of them the same.

a + b + c + d + e - f - g = total mod

D20 + total mod = result

But, your Strength Enhancement modifier affects your to hit roll, just like your innate Strength does. Just like the Luck Saving Throw modifiers affects your saving throw, just like your base saving throw does. Except for Stacking issues, the modifiers are rarely discussed in the game.

 

[Twowolves]

Do you believe that ray of enfeeblement can stop a character from qualifying for Power Attack?

Where have I ever stated anything to lead you to believe I think that it won't???

Let me say it again, in case everyone missed it the first 50 or so times I've said it:

Temporary modifiers to a character do not/should not/will not enable a character to qualify for a permenant ability. Race, ability score, ability to cast a certain type of spell or certain level of spell, having a set rank in a skill, class level, NONE of these prerequisites can/should/will enable a character to take a feat/PrC unless the baseline, unmodified, "naked" character sans items or spells in effect, could do so.

There is no Power Attack feat to take away with a Ray of Enfeeblement if the target of the spell never had a base strength of 13 with which to qualify for the feat in the first place. IF (and that's a big "if") I ever agreed that were it possible to do so, I would certainly agree that losing the magic item that put the character's strength to 13+ in the first place would, yes indeed, would result in losing the feat until something modified it's strength score back above 13. If the minimum score for these types of feats were only require to make the feat work, instead of the level required to simply choose the feat, they wouldn't call them "PRErequisits". In such case, you could choose a feat with any ability score at will, and just not be able to use it until such time as you, through magic or otherwise, gained the minimum score of said ability.

 

[IcyCool]

Let me say it again, in case everyone missed it the first 50 or so times I've said it:

You're right, I missed that the first 50 times you posted it. I must've missed a page or post where you did nothing but repeat it over and over.

So, given what you just said, I'd like to be perfectly clear on the answer to a question.

Bob the fighter has a base 13 strength. Bob the fighter took Power Attack as his first level fighter bonus feat. Bob then gets hit with a Ray of Enfeeblement, giving him a strength penalty of -4. Do you, Twowolves, let Bob continue to use his Power Attack feat while the strength penalty is in effect?

 

[Twowolves]

You're right, I missed that the first 50 times you posted it. I must've missed a page or post where you did nothing but repeat it over and over.

So, given what you just said, I'd like to be perfectly clear on the answer to a question.

Bob the fighter has a base 13 strength. Bob the fighter took Power Attack as his first level fighter bonus feat. Bob then gets hit with a Ray of Enfeeblement, giving him a strength penalty of -4. Do you, Twowolves, let Bob continue to use his Power Attack feat while the strength penalty is in effect?

Did you even bother to read the post you are quoting? Because I answered your question long before you even asked it.

No, Figher Bob temporarily cannot use his Power Attack feat while his strength score is temporarily below 13. Now, perhaps you can tell me what that has to do with selecting the Power Attack feat in the first place?

 

[Artoomis]

I've stayed out of this, but I just though of an example that supports the argument that the modifed score should not be the score considered for qualifications.

Skills. The RANK you have is what is important for qualifiying for prestige classes and feats. Nothing modifies yoru actual rank, though lots of things can change what you bonus is. Perhpas this has already been mentioned - I did not have the patience to read everything in this thread.

It's kind of similar. Anyway, I say the rules are not really clear and there is room for a legitimate interpretation that requires the value used to be the actual value, not the modified one.

I think qualifying for feats and prestige classes is very different from other times you look at ability scores.

It does not really matter to me, I think both sides have a pretty good argument, though each has a different basis for that argument.

 

[IcyCool]

Did you even bother to read the post you are quoting? Because I answered your question long before you even asked it.

No, Figher Bob temporarily cannot use his Power Attack feat while his strength score is temporarily below 13. Now, perhaps you can tell me what that has to do with selecting the Power Attack feat in the first place?

I did read the post, I just wanted to have a clear, concise answer. Now, my new question (which should clear up your question):

Why do you deny Bob access to his Power Attack feat? His bare, naked str score is 13. He has a temporary bonus of -4 (also referred to as a penalty) to his score, so it is currently a 9. But his base score is a 13.

Now take it in reverse. Bill has a str score of 12. He puts on some Gauntlets of Ogre Power which grant him a "temporary" bonus of +2 to his score, and now his str is 14. Why can Bob not select Power Attack as a feat? Why don't you rule the same for both Bob and Bill?.

Edit - I'm not picking on you, and I'm not trying to irritate you. I'm also not telling you that you are playing the game wrong. If you and your friends are having fun, then I'd say you're playing it right.

 

[KarinsDad]

Now take it in reverse. Bill has a str score of 12. He puts on some Gauntlets of Ogre Power which grant him a "temporary" bonus of +2 to his score, and now his str is 14. Why can Bob not select Power Attack as a feat? Why don't you rule the same for both Bob and Bill?.

I can understand Twowolves frustration because it has been stated many times.

The reason is because you shouldn't use temporary items to qualify for a permanent ability. The same reason Prestige Classes typically specify BAB and skill ranks, not totals.

 

[Dimwhit]

Why do you deny Bob access to his Power Attack feat? His bare, naked str score is 13. He has a temporary bonus of -4 (also referred to as a penalty) to his score, so it is currently a 9. But his base score is a 13.

My call: because his STR was reduced below 13, he temporarily loses access to Power Attack (and any feat on the PA chain). Why? Because he no longer has a 13 STR.

Now take it in reverse. Bill has a str score of 12. He puts on some Gauntlets of Ogre Power which grant him a "temporary" bonus of +2 to his score, and now his str is 14. Why can Bob not select Power Attack as a feat? Why don't you rule the same for both Bob and Bill?.

My call: I would let him take the feat. If he takes the gauntlets off, he no longer has the needed 13 STR and therefore loses access to the feat temporarily (and any feat in the PA chain).

Again, that's how I'd rule both situations.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Again, that's how I'd rule both situations.

I agree with you - and I think we've made a pretty good effort to illustrate that the rules do, too.

Consider He-Man / Adam.

Adam, on his own, isn't strong enough to perform the maneuvers required for Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave.

It is only when he is the beneficient of a Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance ("I have the power!") that he gains enough Strength to perform these maneuvers.

He still knows what to do when he's in Adam mode (as in, he has still undergone whatever training the feat represents), he just can't perform effectively without the magic granted by the sword.

That's a pretty cut-and-dried example of allowing magic items to help you qualify.

 

[IcyCool]

Dimwhit and Patryn, I also agree.

Others in this discussion don't.

*shrug*