Thanks, guys, you've ruined Haste for the rest of us.

[officeronin]

I find it so weird that spellcasters are complaining they can't keep up with fighters in combat. After years of hearing the complaint from the fighters, this version of it just strikes me as odd

I'm in 2 games -- in one, the fighters generally are doing d8 + strength and magic on a hit. In the other, they're doing the same plus 2 handed power strike, specialization, improved critical, power attack, reckless attack, and (if paladins) divine might. In the first game, they are doing around 20 points per round, and in the second, 70 to 80 points. Both are 12th level games.

The wizard is tossing his 10d6 fireball for an average of 26 points due to half the saves being successful. Sure, he can do it to several people, but the fighters can do their damage all day -- and the wizard runs out of spells. Letting the wizard double his damage by throwing 2 fireballs did not seem out of balance -- especially since he will run out of spells that much sooner.

I agree that their reasoning was moronic. Wizards who are after more spells per round will take both haste and quicken spell. One of my wizards took quicken spell, and used it once per combat -- for sheild. Nothing else was worth the 4 level bump.

OfficeRonin

 

[nharwell]

Ah, I see. So the change to Haste is fine, because maybe the DM won't use it?

Well, the change will certainly make damage-dealing spells even more pointless than they already are. A mid-level fighter will get three attacks, plus one for Haste and maybe more (if using two-weapon fighting or Rapid Shot), for about 30 points of damage with each attack, for a total of about 120 to 150 points of damage. A wizard can cast one fireball to do 10d6 damage, save for half, meaning about 17 points of damage, once a round. Yeah, that seems balanced.

You're comparison is flawed. Your sample wizard can easily do 17 points of damage to 10 or more creatures -- making it 170 points vs. the fighter's 150 points. And that's assuming a sub-par spell -- at those levels he could be throwing 5th or 6th-level attack spells, rather than fireballs...

 

[IceBear]

I'm in 2 games -- in one, the fighters generally are doing d8 + strength and magic on a hit. In the other, they're doing the same plus 2 handed power strike, specialization, improved critical, power attack, reckless attack, and (if paladins) divine might. In the first game, they are doing around 20 points per round, and in the second, 70 to 80 points. Both are 12th level games.

The wizard is tossing his 10d6 fireball for an average of 26 points due to half the saves being successful. Sure, he can do it to several people, but the fighters can do their damage all day -- and the wizard runs out of spells. Letting the wizard double his damage by throwing 2 fireballs did not seem out of balance -- especially since he will run out of spells that much sooner.

I agree that their reasoning was moronic. Wizards who are after more spells per round will take both haste and quicken spell. One of my wizards took quicken spell, and used it once per combat -- for sheild. Nothing else was worth the 4 level bump.

OfficeRonin

Oh I understand that. I was just commenting that the switch in the direction in the complaints was interesting. I tend to keep my campaigns low power so I tend to fall into the first category with my experiences.

IceBear

 

[Crothian]

Well, we didn't cause this change. Sure people didn't like it on these boards but Wizards did their own playtesting and figured it out on their own.

 

[SimonMoon5]

You're [sic] comparison is flawed. Your sample wizard can easily do 17 points of damage to 10 or more creatures -- making it 170 points vs. the fighter's 150 points. And that's assuming a sub-par spell -- at those levels he could be throwing 5th or 6th-level attack spells, rather than fireballs...

A wizard can't damage 10 creatures if there's only one to fight. In my experience, most DMs don't want to have lots of significant battles with a dozen enemies-- too much to keep track of. There might be the occasional "Oh, yeah, here's a horde of orcs just so the wizard has something to do", but the important fights typically have small number of opponents (or else the hordes are so weak that you can safely ignore them). Of course, that's just my experience.

And using higher level spells doesn't change things much. Try a 5th level spell, you say? How about cone of cold, the traditional 5th level damaging spell. At best, it does about 1.5 times as much damage as a fireball, changing the 17 damage to about 25. Should I be impressed by that?

 

[mystraschosen]

*leads a angry mob of torch wielding villagers to the gates of wizards and hasbro to burn the edifice down*

As a wizard lover and frequent player this sucks.

 

[lupo]

I prolly should be able to find it myself, but where is the official errata for haste from WOTC?

Thanks

 

[IceBear]

It's not out yet. It appears that the d20 Modern version will be the new one in 3.5. Look at the news on the front page. The changes to haste are mentioned in there.

IceBear

 

[Pielorinho]

Okay, so a bunch of people complained and now Haste is nerfed. Thanks a lot.

MWAHAHAHAHA! Bow before my leet WOTC-mind-control skillz!

Daniel
off to kick puppies, steal candy from babies, and give a Fort save to Harm

 

[IceBear]

Re: Re: Thanks, guys, you've ruined Haste for the rest of us.

MWAHAHAHAHA! Bow before my leet WOTC-mind-control skillz!

Daniel
off to kick puppies, steal candy from babies, and give a Fort save to Harm

Could you make it Will instead (so it scales with the Inflict spells)?

IceBear