Thanks, guys, you've ruined Haste for the rest of us.

[Quinn]

No, not really. Empower is very efficient in a way that Quicken is not, because Quicken chews through high level spell slots and low level spell slots at the same time.

If you want to maximize damage during a single round or two of combat, go with Quicken.

If you want to maximaize damage over the course of several rounds, go with Empower.

Perhaps, but it also depends on how many battles you can expect to be in before resting and regaining spells. In my experience, the wizard is the first one in the group to suggest that the party might be overextending itself (Uh, guys....I'm outta fireballs). I'm not convinced that the advantage you gain for casting an empowered fireball and keeping the third slot offsets the power of casting two fireballs (one quickened, one normal).

 

[Storm Raven]

No, I challenged an average damage of 30 per swing

No, actually, you didn't.

Originally posted by Pax:
That's still not the 30-per-hit-average I objected to above

Originally posted by Pax:
That' still not 30 damage per hit

You objected to the idea that mid-level fighter types could deal 30 points of damage per hit on average. The simple fact of the matter is that not only can they, it is not that hard for them to do so, a fairly standard array of stats and equipment for a character that level hits that mark with regularity.

Trying to dodge out of what you challenged before by trying to say you said something different from what you actually said is a bit disingenuous, don't you think?

 

[Pax]

You objected to the idea that mid-level fighter types could deal 30 points of damage per hit on average. The simple fact of the matter is that not only can they, it is not that hard for them to do so, a fairly standard array of stats and equipment for a character that level hits that mark with regularity.

Trying to dodge out of what you challenged before by trying to say you said something different from what you actually said is a bit disingenuous, don't you think?

Okay, and with your descent into silly semantics, you prove yoruself a troll and nothing more. Try going back to the FIRST post, which I objected to.

Meanwhile, expect no more responses from me.

*walks away, holding up "do not feed the trolls" sign*

 

[Storm Raven]

Okay, and with your descent into silly semantics, you prove yoruself a troll and nothing more. Try going back to the FIRST post, which I objected to.

Okay, if you want to dodge and weave, that's your business. But the simple fact of the matter is that your original post on this subject opined that a "mid-lvele fighter" might average a net per round damage output of "30 to 40 points", and questioned whether he could "reliably" hit with all his attacks. A pair of statements that are farcically incorrect.

As I have shown with not one, but two different character models, not only can a mid level fighter with fairly standard stats and equipment expect to reliably hit with all of his attacks against equivalent CR opponents, but can expect to deal far more than "30 to 40" points of damage per round, usually to the tune of more like 60-80 points of damage per round without even trying hard, and without accounting for increased damage output from feats like Cleave, Great Cleave or Whirlwing Attack, or even factoring in AoO's, all of which can increase his damage inpur tremendously given the high per hit average damage.

In other words, you are just being petulant because your bold statements concerning expected damage output for fighters have been shown to be wildly innaccurate.

 

[Andion Isurand]

AS for the new haste spell, I feel that they should reduce the ""extra partial action"" to an ""extra move-equivalent action""....

that way, Fighters can move thier speed and still make a full attack....

and Sorcerers can move thier speed and cast a metamagic spell that takes 1 round.... etc. etc.

 

[KainDrakk]

I know in the campaigns I played in, haste or no haste wizards sorcerers bards are rarely played, mostly because the only things they have to offer to the party is what they can already buy (eg haste boots, winged mask, ect....) they do little amount of damage in regards of comparing to the fighters... but they are always fun to make fun of *chants fireball fireball fireball MAGIC MISSILE!!!!!!*, clerics are basically the only spell casters that you see in the campaigns i play in, probably because most of all they are required in healing, in my opinion haste was over powered for a third level spell, i'd say a 4th level spell would be fine perhaps with a shorter duration like... 1rnd/2levels to a max of 10 or something :\ and something i've always been wondering about is how do you get the extra partial action on the round you cast it on... if it requires you to take an action to cast it.... then thats basically your round, it shouldnt reverse time so you can take another action after you cast it in the same round... but anyways, the new haste sounds decent for fighters, and with the correct prcs clerics and wizards as well... again in my opinion i feel that wizards and sorcerers powers are mainly out of battle and not in it... more of a roleplaying aspect there are many ways to boost spell dcs up high enough where most people cant save them (refer to sultans of smack ) usually the only time you see a wizard(or sorcerer) in our party is when someone is making a character like arcane archer or arcane trixster... haste definatly helps wizards but i feel it helps fighters just as much.... and now i will part.... for i am tired....

 

[SimonMoon5]

and something i've always been wondering about is how do you get the extra partial action on the round you cast it on... if it requires you to take an action to cast it.... then thats basically your round,

No. An action is not equal to a round. After you cast a "one action" casting time spell, you still have your a move-equivalent action left to take... and if that move-equivalent is not actually movement, you might also take a 5 foot step. So, your round is definitely not over once you cast a spell. And since you get an extra partial action with Haste on each of your rounds... and since your round is not over yet... you get an extra action on this round, since this round is a round.

 

[Madriver]

And since you get an extra partial action with Haste on each of your rounds... and since your round is not over yet... you get an extra action on this round, since this round is a round.

What a funny sounding sentence.

 

[frisbeet]

Okay, if you want to dodge and weave, that's your business. But the simple fact of the matter is that your original post on this subject opined that a "mid-lvele fighter" might average a net per round damage output of "30 to 40 points", and questioned whether he could "reliably" hit with all his attacks. A pair of statements that are farcically incorrect.

As I have shown with not one, but two different character models, not only can a mid level fighter with fairly standard stats and equipment expect to reliably hit with all of his attacks against equivalent CR opponents, but can expect to deal far more than "30 to 40" points of damage per round, usually to the tune of more like 60-80 points of damage per round without even trying hard, and without accounting for increased damage output from feats like Cleave, Great Cleave or Whirlwing Attack, or even factoring in AoO's, all of which can increase his damage inpur tremendously given the high per hit average damage.

In other words, you are just being petulant because your bold statements concerning expected damage output for fighters have been shown to be wildly innaccurate.

Only 2 models? Models? You want models? I give you models.

http://www.geocities.com/frisbeet/DandDandFightin.html

Use this site to your heart's content. You will see that 30 to 40 points is indeed not unrealistic. But the all important caveat is that AC and DR must be accounted for in such a claim--it is false for opponents with lots of armor or damage reduction. I cringe at generalizations. Don't generalize--burn some calories in your brain (Not directing this at any one person) and batteries in your calculator. Ask reasonable comparison questions for the wizard and fighter. Take into consideration the kinds of things you can wield/wear and be in your D&D world. Then you'll have your answer.

Oh, wow, this box is made of soap. Gross.

 

[Quinn]

Wow, very cool spreadsheet, Frisbeet!

The nice thing about this is you can also figure out how much damage that fighter will be taking in return over the course of a round. If the fighter is up against an opponent whose abilities are comparable, it essentially becomes a fight of attrition.