D&D 5E The case for (and against) a new Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book

[Coroc]

You are absolutely, right... your grumbling is valid. Those that really want old stuff printed in the 5E style, you are right to grumble that it isn't happening.

The only downside is... I don't think WotC cares.

I suspect (in my opinion only) that WotC is of the opinion that those people who have played in the old settings KNOW what they love about those old settings, and will work really, really hard to run games "the right way" in those settings. And thus WotC feels like those DMs who do that? They don't NEED a new book to accomplish it. They are all experienced DMs who know what they like, know what they want, and if they wanted to run a game in Athas, they could do so right now using the Dark Sun materials they've gather from 2E, 3E, and 4E. Yes, the DMs would need to create certain rules to emulate older edition rules for metal weapon breakage, Defiling/Preserving etc... but really, for experienced DMs who know what they want, how hard is that to do? Either by themselves or to go googling to find other people who have already done that work?

Any DM who wants to run Dark Sun right now probably has several version of 5E psionics they could easily use or adapt for to run a game at this very moment. Now is it "official"? No. But who cares if it is? If you know what your Dark Sun game should be like... you can run one using 5E. You don't need WotC to hold your hand.

And this is why I think they have done all these other setting first (not including Eberron)... because there AREN'T previous versions of those settings in the game to use already. They are NEW settings for NEW players to find and enjoy. Us old folks who ran Greyhawk and Dragonlance and still own all that stuff printed in decades past? We know what they are. We already have what we need. So WotC doesn't need to cater to us anymore. They and TSR have done so for the past 40 years... they're now trying to help out the new folks coming in.

Yeah, it can be annoying, and yeah, we can grumble about it. Unfortunately, I don't think its going to change anything. WotC will continue to work on their own schedule and do it when they are ready.

(What I think really needs to happen is that there has to be a strong proponent of an old setting outside of the D&D design team who is willing to spearhead the project and keep pushing it. Like Keith Baker for Eberron, James Wyatt for the MtG settings, Matt Mercer for Exandria. Once they have someone who is over the moon for Dark Sun that they can trust to take the ball and run with it... maybe then it can move to the head of the pack rather than just be another "we'll get to it when we get to it" situation.)

Absolutely this ^^

@DEFCON 1 nailed it. I know exactly what I would want out of a 5e Darksun game and I tailored rules for all the little deviations from standard 5e, and it was a bit of a headache to fit it in, especially minor material equipment but I found a super easy solution here (normal dice for minor and 1 die category higher for metal weapons). And I am absolutely convinced that the custom rules I did are balanced, within 5e BA and for psionics I take UAmystic3 first three subclasses using only the talents for these subclasses and except a few elemental spells for clerics I got a solid framework.

So I would not need any DS Material, especially if it contains things like:

....
Did you just forget about Gulthay? This is the type of amnesia that Hasbro is causing. Pretty soon, you'll be saying that Dark Sun is the home of My Little Ponies.

and i add to that:

• My little dragonborn
• My little tiefling
• My little drow
• my little arcane caster being not a mage
• my little paladin
• my little monk/barbarian who makes any environmental challenge pointless
• my little (race/class who can fly / teleport / windwalk etc. at character level 5 to 10) who can make any travel in harsh conditions challenge pointless

etc. etc. *

Things like that simply do NOT belong into a gritty dark sun game.

Next my little hobbit shows up and looks for the one ring to bind all sorcerer kings ...

* Edit: arcane (mostly NPC) class with using Warlock of the tome reskin for Templars would be the only thing which would really deviate from the original setup, but this hack feels so right that I will absolutely use it

 

[Mecheon]

Things like that simply do NOT belong into a gritty dark sun game.

The Wildemount Dragonborn perfectly fit as Dray (Especially the Draconborn), paladins follow oaths in this edition so they're hecka appropriate for being servents of the Sorcerer Kings (Especially any oaths of civilisation or the like), warlocks basically -are- templars and sorcerers are an easy shoe in of "You've been born with some weird blood and now everyone in the Waste is after you for the obvious reasons"....

Oh, and Arakkocra are historic for Dark Sun so if you don't like flying races in that I uh, got bad news for you

 

[JiffyPopTart]

And I think it makes more sense for them to instead make new stuff and not devote so much to what are effectively corners of a long since developed world, especially when we're still waiting on other ones to get mechanical updates to allow them to be playable in this new edition.

No one's arguing that people want more FR stuff, but my argument is going to remain that the effort spent on that could instead be producing us Planescape, Spelljammer or Dark Sun, and I think more people would prefer those getting updated than "Obscure Corner of the Realms that Only Existing Realms Fans Know About"

Wasn't one of the problems of the later 2e era setting bloat?

When you build D&D only wider and never higher do you run the risk of fracturing fanbase or confusing new players?

Do you think the average new recruit fully understands what the different campaign settings actually mean...and how the adventure paths fit into the different campaign settings?

I spent the first 3 years of young gaming time before I understood that BECMI and AD&D weren't the same game, and that Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms were neither the same nor just generic D&D supplements.

 

[Mercurius]

Without any polling or survey data, this is just a theory. I can make my own theories that point to the exact opposite conclusion.

And I'll be the first to mention the only really useful survey is the one done by WotC itself (D&D Monthly Survey | Dungeons & Dragons), but this survey coincidentally happened two months before the SCAG was released.

The only group who likely has good market research on what setting people want updated is WotC itself. I find it telling that they haven't made an updated Realms book; it points to people not actually wanting a 2nd Realms book.

Yes, just a theory. And?

But we're all just speculating on why WotC hasn't (yet) done a full treatment of the Realms, and whether or not they eventually will. I don't think it is outlandish to think that new players will be more interested in a Realms book than they would be, say, Greyhawk or Mystara, considering that almost all of them have actual play experience in the Realms by default. That part isn't in theory. I'm sure some will be curious about other legacy settings, and maybe WotC can fan the flames a bit with introductory articles on old settings with polling to get responses.

 

[Mecheon]

Wasn't one of the problems of the later 2e era setting bloat?

When you build D&D only wider and never higher do you run the risk of fracturing fanbase or confusing new players?

2E and 5E's approaches to settings are not comparable. 2E released constant content updates for each setting, more and more books and adventures being produced for each setting. 5E does not do that. Its a one then done scenario. We're not going to see Ravnica Mk 2, Electric Boogaloo

Do you think the average new recruit fully understands what the different campaign settings actually mean...and how the adventure paths fit into the different campaign settings?

I mean, given the oft quoted number that 60% of people play in homebrew settings, I don't think the average new person to the hobby cares that much. I think the average person is completely fine with their own thing divorcing itself from 'canon' to instead be reflective of their characters and their adventures

 

[Coroc]

The Wildemount Dragonborn perfectly fit as Dray (Especially the Draconborn), paladins follow oaths in this edition so they're hecka appropriate for being servents of the Sorcerer Kings (Especially any oaths of civilisation or the like), warlocks basically -are- templars and sorcerers are an easy shoe in of "You've been born with some weird blood and now everyone in the Waste is after you for the obvious reasons"....

Oh, and Arakkocra are historic for Dark Sun so if you don't like flying races in that I uh, got bad news for you

Ahm yes, but the Arakkocra, if they were present in 2e already which I cannot tell atm., were surely at DMs discretion.

Paladins are not necessary, you got Templars. And as I do not want to run an all evil campaign, a paladin sworn to a sorcerer king would not be available anyway as a party member even if I would allow that combo.

Sorcerers again are not necessary, (You got wizards already taking the place of the fugitive hated by most for his strange capabilities which can destroy the environment further), nor do they fit the setting. I use part of the sorcerer mechanic in my custom rules as a "reward" for defiling, namely the sorcery points.

My personal baseline would be 2e anyway, although 4e seemed to have worked quite well for DS (with its own rule specialties considering this setting) but I got no experience with 4e so I cannot tell other than what I heard or read.

Dray = Notdragonborn, but they are quite secluded if you start your campaign anywhere else e.g. in Tyr.
Imo they got more of a lizardman than a dragonborn. I could imagine to integrate these, if it fits thematically.

 

[Mecheon]

Ahm yes, but the Arakkocra, if they were present in 2e already which I cannot tell atm., were surely at DMs discretion.

They were vulture dudes back then, player stats in the Revised box-set.

Paladins are not necessary, you got Templars. And as I do not want to run an all evil campaign, a paladin sworn to a sorcerer king would not be available anyway as a party member even if I would allow that combo.

Whoever said he had to be evil? He can be good. Trying to do what he can to keep civilisation going and slowly dying inside from what it is he is doing.

Sorcerers again are not necessary, (You got wizards already taking the place of the fugitive hated by most for his strange capabilities which can destroy the environment further), nor do they fit the setting. I use part of the sorcerer mechanic in my custom rules as a "reward" for defiling, namely the sorcery points.

How do sorcerers not fit? Wizards are fugitives who are willingly delving into the arts of magic and getting obscure lore. Sorcerers are the ones who are just born different and its that cursed bloodright that gives them that chaos. They're hella fitting in the setting

Dray = Notdragonborn, but they are quite secluded if you start your campaign anywhere else e.g. in Tyr.
Imo they got more of a lizardman than a dragonborn. I could imagine to integrate these, if it fits thematically.

Check the player stats of the Dray (Particularly the 2nd Genners) and compare with the Draconblood stats. Fits a lot better than stock Dragonborn, especially given the lack of any breath weapons and their effect being presence based given what Dray are

 

[Dormammu]

Forum participants aren't representative of the D&D fan-base as a whole. The average age on these forums is mid to late 40s, about 15-20 years older than the average EN World visitor, if memory serves. Meaning, the average forum user remembers Dragonlance as a kid, and probably fondly, while the average D&D player has actually played in the Realms and would probably be far more interested in knowing about the world beyond the story arc context.

I agree. And FR is basically the only setting used for all D&D computer games and board games, making it even more likely that less entrenched RPG fans know it to the exclusion of all other settings.

And to the Dark Sun discussion, really? Surely this has gone way past tangency to the topic of FR.

 

[Coroc]

They were vulture dudes back then, player stats in the Revised box-set.

Whoever said he had to be evil? He can be good. Trying to do what he can to keep civilisation going and slowly dying inside from what it is he is doing.

How do sorcerers not fit? Wizards are fugitives who are willingly delving into the arts of magic and getting obscure lore. Sorcerers are the ones who are just born different and its that cursed bloodright that gives them that chaos. They're hella fitting in the setting


Check the player stats of the Dray (Particularly the 2nd Genners) and compare with the Draconblood stats. Fits a lot better than stock Dragonborn, especially given the lack of any breath weapons and their effect being presence based given what Dray are

Ah yes, I do not have access to the revised set, but I remembered correctly then.

A Paladin of good alignment carrying out the law of an evil sorcerer king. Hm. Very plot intense. I know some roleplayers at my table who love to build the characters psychology (the secret 3 1/2 th pillar almost never mentioned aka RP to the extreme), for these this would be a challenge, but for me as a DM it would be a nightmare, I had to tailor twists and bends accompanying the main story arc to fit their needs, so,no, not for me. Als o I do not want the paladin mechanics allowing for immense damage bursts a lot for DS.

Sorcerers would tend to defile automatically, since they lack the discipline. that is one. Wild magic never has been a thing on Athas so that is not a valid background. Dragonblood? There are no true dragons on Athas, or any form of descendants through all the ages. Favored soul? How does this fit into the elemental clerics system.
So maybe storm sorcerer, but tbh. in my vision of Athas if there would be a sorcerer by whatever reason,
he would start to defile, and defile more, and so on like a loopback, and blast himself up at one point.
Wizards in Athas are in fact quite sorcerer like, because the "weave" as an energy source for magic is replaced by life in form of plants, and in the version I intend also of creatures. There are no mage academies so a wizard might have a master teaching them in secret, or be picked up by the veiled alliance or such, before that he is quite unsure about his skills (so like a sorcerer) at least that's my pov for this setting.
Also this is my homerule boon to wizards who defile, they get sorcerer points up to their INT mod and may instantly apply sorcerer metamagics to their spell with these points, so what do I give sorcerers who defile then?


Yep, as I said Dray would be fitting, although I would have to check the lore on how well they might work together with other races.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Forum participants aren't representative of the D&D fan-base as a whole. The average age on these forums is mid to late 40s, about 15-20 years older than the average EN World visitor, if memory serves. Meaning, the average forum user remembers Dragonlance as a kid, and probably fondly, while the average D&D player has actually played in the Realms and would probably be far more interested in knowing about the world beyond the story arc context.

In my experience Forgotten Realms fans are just as geriatric as Dragonlance fans. NWN2 came out 15 years ago, so the people who grew up playing it are in their 30s now. BG fans even older. Exandria is what is familiar to 2020 youngsters.