The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread

[CRGreathouse]

By Date
01. The Worship Points System (2002-01-18)
02. Immortals Handbook (aka The Worship Points System) (2002-02-22)
03. The Immortal`s Handbook (2002-06-04)
04. Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook] (2002-07-24)
05. Immortal's Handbook continuation thread (2003-01-23)
06. Immortal's Handbook continuation thread continuation (2003-03-14)
07. Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf) (2003-03-30)
08. Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels pdf (Version 3) (2003-04-07)
09. Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread (2003-05-04)
10. immortals handbook (2003-06-30)
11. Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3 (2003-08-30)
12. v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible) (2003-10-15)
13. The Immortals Handbook (2004-01-26)
14. Immortal's Handbook CR/EL Rules: Don't Count Ability Scores (Proof Positive Inside!) (2004-02-17)
15. The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread (2005-01-25)

By Forum Rank (# of posts) (Yes, we have all of the top 7!)
1. The Immortals Handbook (1440 replies)
2. Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook] (794 replies)
3. v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible) (740 replies)
4. immortals handbook (673 replies)
5. Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf) (521 replies)
6. Immortal's Handbook continuation thread (475 replies)
7. Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread (430 replies)
10. The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread (~320 replies)
16. The Worship Points System (232 replies)
19. Immortals Handbook (aka The Worship Points System) (200 replies)
32. Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3 (135 replies)
43. Immortal's Handbook continuation thread continuation (109 replies)
72. The Immortal`s Handbook (73 replies)
75. Immortal's Handbook CR/EL Rules: Don't Count Ability Scores (Proof Positive Inside!) (71 replies)
348. Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels pdf (Version 3) (28 replies)

By Thread Starter
Anubis
Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]
Immortal's Handbook CR/EL Rules: Don't Count Ability Scores (Proof Positive Inside!)

Darkness
Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3

Dinkeldog
Immortal's Handbook continuation thread
Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

Eldorian
Immortal's Handbook continuation thread continuation

kkoie
immortals handbook

Melkor, Lord Of ALL!
The Immortal`s Handbook

Upper_Krust
The Worship Points System
Immortals Handbook (aka The Worship Points System)
Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)
Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels pdf (Version 3)
v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)
The Immortals Handbook
The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread

Related Threads
Anubis' Saiyans and Tyranids (2002-09-01)
Anubis' Expanded ECL rules! (2002-09-05)
Anubis' "Rules: Saiyans" by Anubis (2002-09-16)
Anubis' "The Big Big Book of Feats" by Anubis (2002-09-16)
Jarval's How much effect on ECL should Fast Healing have? (2002-10-02)
Cheiromancer's Epic Spellcasting (2003-11-27)
Cheiromancer's Level Independent XP Awards (2004-04-28)

**************

Conversions
Converting from various systems into the 3E D&D system of the Immortals Handbook
SDAs into Divine Abilities and Cosmic Abilities
Gods & Monsters from 1E
Gods from OD&D Immortals and Primal Order

Previews and Free Stuff
Monsters and other material, either previewed from the Bestiary or just miscellaneous material showing Upper_Krust's style.
Crown Naga (CR 25)
Epic Tarrasque (CR 44)
Anakim (Silent One) (CR 45)
Amilictli (All-Relentless Thunder) (CR 85)
Godzilla (CR 120)
Talos (CR 128)
King Ghidorah (CR 133)
Gibborim (Mighty One)
5 epic feats

Revised CR/EL System
Draft #1 (2003-03-30)
Draft #3 (2003-04-07)
Draft #4 (2003-10-15)

 

[S'mon]

Without risk there is no reward. I'd just like to think I am putting the fear back into epic play where resurrection is so common place that death is but an inconvenience. I should ask S'mon to write a simony column on death at high level - he has rewritten the various 'resurrection' spells for his campaign for a much more lethal campaign. Greater the risks, greater the reward.

Certainly I feel that fear is an important part of the game. Otherwise you might as well play Diablo. I've now taken to using Fate Points to keep PCs alive through the low levels, so arguably I've gone a bit soft in my old age, but certainly I feel that deity-level play needs constraints on the PCs, and fear is an important one. In mythology, the gods are often afraid - in fact you could argue that fear is the dominant emotion in many pantheons, certainly the Norse and arguably the Greek. When you have so much to lose, fear of death is natural. A major arc has just kicked off in my campaign world BTW, as the Sword Rulers (Arioch Xiombarg & Mabelode) turn their attention to Thrin's homeworld Ea... I'm looking forward to lots of high-level fun... and fear.

In my campaign, Thrin "the Brave" often rightfully fears the foe, whether that's some mortal with a vorpal battleaxe or automatic grenade launcher, or a rival deity. The PC deities who _didn't_ fear when they should have, like Mirv "I'll lightning bolt Hel again" Sheelon, are all dead...

 

[S'mon]

"Risk"... what CRs are these things supposed to be for the risk to be so severe? (permanent hit point loss far outweighs trinkets and XP, IMO)

IMC there are plenty of 'monsters' who nobody in their right mind would voluntarily _seek out_ to battle against. I can just imagine it - "Yeah let's go to Mt Kos, there's a wizard there called Doomstar and I hear he has loads of kewl loot..."

However, sometimes you don't get a choice - the monsters seek _you_ out. Then you can fight, or you can run and hide. Sometimes you are impelled to fight, for a greater cause, even knowing the odds. Deity level play IMC is not all fun and hijinks and CR-balanced encounters! It's a big, tough multiverse out there, and just because you can eat pantheons for breakfast doesn't mean there isn't something that can (and will) eat you for breakfast, too. That's the feel Craig seems to be going for - I think it's tres cool.

BTW Craig if you think any of my comments on these threads are helpful, please feel free to repost them on your website.

 

[S'mon]

Well, the rewards had better compensate for losing those hit points against every creature fought from that point on...

Aw, poor kitty.

Edit: Craig still complains about the time Thrin had to sacrifice a permanent point of WIS just to ask Lady Sarasathsa (Lord of Paradox) a question...

 

[Baronovan]

Well, this cat thinks it's tres crappy to lose HP permanently, no matter what the paltry "gains" or contrived circumstances. The game is like an algebraic equation, and such a power seems way out of line without at least some way of countering it or repairing it. I'm just glad Krust is putting in a variant that allows sane people to participate, as even vile damage ala BoVD can be healed. Beyond that, I'm sorry for Thrin that the 2nd Ed mentality of permanent damage to anything still exists outside of its framework, unless of course that event occurred in 2nd Ed. I'm sure he would have been more upset had it been a permanent point of Con he had lost.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

Certainly I feel that fear is an important part of the game. Otherwise you might as well play Diablo.

Exactly. Its not just the same fights with higher numbers, at epic and immortal levels eventually anything is possible. So the potential is there to manipulate D&D mechanics in ways that perhaps wouldn't be 'fair' at non-epic levels.

I've now taken to using Fate Points to keep PCs alive through the low levels, so arguably I've gone a bit soft in my old age, but certainly I feel that deity-level play needs constraints on the PCs, and fear is an important one. In mythology, the gods are often afraid - in fact you could argue that fear is the dominant emotion in many pantheons, certainly the Norse and arguably the Greek. When you have so much to lose, fear of death is natural.

Which is another reason why its always better to roleplay a deity from lower levels up through to divinity, because it means you have invested more time in the character and thus have much more to lose than someone who has just rolled up the deity the day before.

A major arc has just kicked off in my campaign world BTW, as the Sword Rulers (Arioch Xiombarg & Mabelode) turn their attention to Thrin's homeworld Ea... I'm looking forward to lots of high-level fun... and fear.

We will win...whatever the cost.

In my campaign, Thrin "the Brave" often rightfully fears the foe, whether that's some mortal with a vorpal battleaxe or automatic grenade launcher, or a rival deity.

Thats not fear, its caution backed by intellect.

The only time Thrin has ever lost was when he didn't know the enemy, thus making the cardinal sin of ignoring Sun Tzus advice. I don't like losing. Ever.

The PC deities who _didn't_ fear when they should have, like Mirv "I'll lightning bolt Hel again" Sheelon, are all dead...

Well its not like you didn't give him a chance.

IMC there are plenty of 'monsters' who nobody in their right mind would voluntarily _seek out_ to battle against. I can just imagine it - "Yeah let's go to Mt Kos, there's a wizard there called Doomstar and I hear he has loads of kewl loot..."

This reminds me of a film I watched yesterday...Superman 2. The three villains, all with the same powers as Superman, beat him up and temporarily wedged him between a bus and a building. The people on the streets of New York, thought Superman dead, and collectively decided "Lets get them!". Fortunately the movie was a 'U' certificate and the villains just used their super breath to blow them down the street.

I was just wondering do gamers see epic play as a sort of 'U' certificate movie, wherein thanks to resurrection (and similar 'get out of jail' options) they can't seriously be hurt?

However, sometimes you don't get a choice - the monsters seek _you_ out. Then you can fight, or you can run and hide. Sometimes you are impelled to fight, for a greater cause, even knowing the odds. Deity level play IMC is not all fun and hijinks and CR-balanced encounters! It's a big, tough multiverse out there, and just because you can eat pantheons for breakfast doesn't mean there isn't something that can (and will) eat you for breakfast, too. That's the feel Craig seems to be going for - I think it's tres cool.

You taught me well Obi-wan.

...by the way Revenge of the Sith is good, but not great IMO.

BTW Craig if you think any of my comments on these threads are helpful, please feel free to repost them on your website.

Its all a bit haphazard, I'll probably write something on it when I get the chance.

Aw, poor kitty.

It appears some of these players see epic gaming as some sort of security blanket...should be fun to pull back the covers on them.

Edit: Craig still complains about the time Thrin had to sacrifice a permanent point of WIS just to ask Lady Sarasathsa (Lord of Paradox) a question...

I can remember complaining about the Raistlin debacle; the Drakhen (Planetar) incident and the Oleg Gadinsky metagaming. But not the Sarasathsa question. Not saying I didn't complain...just that I don't remember doing so.

 

[S'mon]

Well, this cat thinks it's tres crappy to lose HP permanently, no matter what the paltry "gains" or contrived circumstances. The game is like an algebraic equation, and such a power seems way out of line without at least some way of countering it or repairing it. I'm just glad Krust is putting in a variant that allows sane people to participate, as even vile damage ala BoVD can be healed. Beyond that, I'm sorry for Thrin that the 2nd Ed mentality of permanent damage to anything still exists outside of its framework, unless of course that event occurred in 2nd Ed. I'm sure he would have been more upset had it been a permanent point of Con he had lost.

It was 1e/2e, and his choice. Oh, and screw algebraic equations.

Edit: The obvious counter is not to get hit. Don't fight this guy in melee, at least not outside a dead magic zone.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Baranovan mate!

Well, this cat thinks it's tres crappy to lose HP permanently, no matter what the paltry "gains" or contrived circumstances.

Heroism is about risk. If you risk nothing then where is the heroism? As I mentioned before, death can be nothing more than an inconvenience at epic levels - only a Total Party Kill is going to have the gravitas of finality.

So if death is "but a dream", then epic players have to risk things other than their lives. This can be a number of things: equipment/wealth, lands, reputation, worshippers (for immortals)

The game is like an algebraic equation,

If high level means nothing more than bigger numbers then it becomes next to pointless.

and such a power seems way out of line without at least some way of countering it or repairing it.

Well you could always buy an Amulet of Health.

I'm just glad Krust is putting in a variant that allows sane people to participate,

Smell the fear.

as even vile damage ala BoVD can be healed.

Vile damage is simply an evil taint though, hardly as powerful as the annihilating embrace of emptiness.

Beyond that, I'm sorry for Thrin that the 2nd Ed mentality of permanent damage to anything still exists outside of its framework, unless of course that event occurred in 2nd Ed. I'm sure he would have been more upset had it been a permanent point of Con he had lost.

I was given the choice - I knew the risks.

 

[historian]

Hey guys.

Exactly. Its not just the same fights with higher numbers, at epic and immortal levels eventually anything is possible. So the potential is there to manipulate D&D mechanics in ways that perhaps wouldn't be 'fair' at non-epic levels.

Agreed, and this is why true "Immortal" gaming is different from just extrapolating epic levels upwards w/o changing settings, consequences and tactics. It would be pretty boring if all the CR 145 planar warlord did was power attack for a higher value.

You taught me well Obi-wan.

...by the way Revenge of the Sith is good, but not great IMO.

The movie seemed a bit rushed to me, but all in all I thought it was strong except for some over-acting. By the way U_K, what CR would you put on some of the major characters (Yoda, Sidious, Anakin, Mace, Obi-Wan)?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys.

Howdy!

The movie seemed a bit rushed to me, but all in all I thought it was strong except for some over-acting.

For me parts of the movie lacked a certain gravitas (I won't post any spoilers for those who haven't seen it yet), for instance the space battle at the start is not really a battle at all, its just a backdrop. I did like the character of General Grievous. Palpatine pretty much steals the show, however I expected he'd be more powerful than was shown. It was interesting hearing about Darth Plagueus (sp?). The conclusion to 'THE duel' didn't make a whole lot of sense.

Of the three prequel movies I think Attack of the Clones left me the most satisfied, while slow to start the latter half of that movie was brilliant.

By the way U_K, what CR would you put on some of the major characters (Yoda, Sidious, Anakin, Mace, Obi-Wan)?

I suspect Star Wars D20 does a much better job of things than I could proffer on a whim. I doubt any were epic, though I suppose force users are always going to have the edge depending on how strong they are with the force...it would be interesting to know how they handle the force in D20 - I have fond memories of WEGs D6 based Star Wars RPG.