WotC Third party, DNDBeyond and potential bad side effects.

[Oofta]

As someone who uses DDB, I simply don't see all of the issues others see.

First, when I DM I ask people to join my campaign I've created on DDB. It doesn't matter what they've purchased, I simply tell them what content I allow. It's no different than if we were using books, they could always try to bring in some 3PP feature I don't care for. It's easier to control now, I can review their character sheet and see all the details I want. Meanwhile on the "Home" edit page of the character I can see what they allowed content they have checked.

If we want to add add special features to our PCs from a 3PP that's not supported we have some flexibility by checking "Homebrew Content" along with simply adding notes and modifications. May not be as convenient as being built in, but DDB cannot stop us from using other options.

I use DDB because of the convenience and because it makes it easier for me and my players. I wouldn't mind PDFs, but if I'm ever concerned about my stuff going away it's not like I can't get the books.

 

[Remathilis]

Ok, so WOTC isn't going to say "Mike Shea! You're right! Here are all your books in PDFs!"

So what can we do to strengthen our hold on this hobby we love?

• Make sure we can download the books and products we love. Buy them physically and in PDF. Back up your digital files.
• If you "buy" material on a platform, be ready to abandon that platform if it sucks or dies. You're just leasing stuff.
• Try different tools. Try different platforms. Have an escape plan.
• Work with your players to enjoy playing the game with pencil and paper again. Pull on their nostalgia for the "old ways".
• Play systems that don't require as much of a dependence on digital tools (I'm digging Shadowdark RPG).
• Learn how to optimize play with pen and paper. You don't need to write down every skill bonus. Write down page numbers from books for abilities.
• Be comfortable running online games on different platforms. Let players use physical dice and books at their own table.

What else?

Sorry, but this list reads more like "old man doesn't understand technology".

The iPhone changed how we connect with each other and the world. Apple also has a walled garden it controls from its apps to its accessories (the latter needed European regulators change). There is a perfectly viable option to it (android) but iPhone remains in the minds of the populace the standard for smart phones. And Apple hasn't been exactly open with sharing with android. Apple maps, iMessage and other staple apps aren't available. Further, they make it hard to move to Android and keep your info. They are everything you accuse WotC of. If we were to take your list of suggestions and some it to Apple

• We would demand iPhones allow us to save our data to physical media like burning CDs of Apple Music tracks.
• We would advise people to use Android software, particularly forks of Android made by smaller companies.
• We would incentivize using 3pp apps instead of Apple-made ones.
• We would convince people that digital isn't needed. Buy a CD player. Use a calculator. Right post-it notes and send postcards to friends. Get a landline corded phone. Encourage using classic methods and don't rely on Apple's tech that won't be there forever.

If you want to reply to this, come find me on UseNet.

 

[Oofta]

I think some of the issues raised are water that went under the bridge long ago. Back when the OGL was originally created it was kind of a "Let's not fight this out in court, please" move because it's debatable if the core systems of D&D can be legally protected anyway. But what it did was channel a great deal of designers of potential alternatives to D&D into supporting the D&D ecosystem. Instead of doing something completely different it's generally a safer bet to publish something under the OGL (now CC) that's compatible with D&D rather than go off on a different direction. DDB is just a logical next step in that path.

But it also feels like maybe we're trying to simply create a new tempest in the same old teapot. I don't trust WOTC any more or less than any other corporation because I don't trust corporations to do what's right for me. On the other hand, it is in WOTC's best interest to make D&D broadly successful so they can sell related entertainment and products. As long as D&D is well supported, that works for me.

If WOTC wanted to truly stifle competition, they'd buy out other TTRPGs or threaten lawsuits, justified or not, to drive smaller competitors out of business. Instead they've convinced many potential startups and competition to support them. Adding 3PP to DDB is just going to continue and expand upon that trend. It simply gives potential competition another way to join the fold, as long as WOTC can sell the subscription service and core books, it's just another way of limiting competition by making it more profitable for those 3pp to support them instead of striking off in new directions. I just don't see anything new or particularly threatening here.

 

[SlyFlourish]

I do agree that the combination of being market leader, IP owner, and the primary market place owner, along with a walled garden, does sit a little uneasy with me, as that creates a degree of control over the whole hobby. Especially if access to that marketplace is invitation only. Not that DDB is the primary market place (at least not yet) and Kickstarter isn’t going anywhere anytime soon, but conceptually speaking.

Of course this only applies to D&D stuff. It’s not like Chaosium and Free League and Monte Cook Games and a ton of other publishers aren’t doing great with games completely unrelated to D&D.

WotC didn’t end open gaming by cancelling the OGL in the end. But making a walled garden the only viable way to sell third party stuff would effectively have the same effect.

But Kickstarter is still out there.

Yeah, absolutely. This doesn’t affect my Shadowdark RPG but I like to laugh and say that https://shadowdarklings.net/ is the future enshittification of Shadowdark (it's a fantastic tool developed by one guy).

This definitely only affects 5e.

But right now I can’t get players to adopt A5E because it’s not on D&D Beyond. It took a lot of negotiation to get them to use subclasses from Kobold Press. I know they'd just prefer to use D&D Beyond. And that sucks. All the DM-facing stuff is fine. I can use all the material from Trials and Treasure and the Monstrous Menagerie easily regardless of what tools they use, but if I offer up A5e next to D&D Beyond, I know which way they'll go.

That's a shame.

I'm hoping we'll see more support for other online 5e character builders (which is the real issue – everything else is pretty easy to do off of PDFs) such as Shard, the external Roll20 charactermancer, and Demiplane. I think that could really improve things.

 

[SlyFlourish]

Sorry, but this list reads more like "old man doesn't understand technology".

The iPhone changed how we connect with each other and the world. Apple also has a walled garden it controls from its apps to its accessories (the latter needed European regulators change). There is a perfectly viable option to it (android) but iPhone remains in the minds of the populace the standard for smart phones. And Apple hasn't been exactly open with sharing with android. Apple maps, iMessage and other staple apps aren't available. Further, they make it hard to move to Android and keep your info. They are everything you accuse WotC of. If we were to take your list of suggestions and some it to Apple

• We would demand iPhones allow us to save our data to physical media like burning CDs of Apple Music tracks.
• We would advise people to use Android software, particularly forks of Android made by smaller companies.
• We would incentivize using 3pp apps instead of Apple-made ones.
• We would convince people that digital isn't needed. Buy a CD player. Use a calculator. Right post-it notes and send postcards to friends. Get a landline corded phone. Encourage using classic methods and don't rely on Apple's tech that won't be there forever.

If you want to reply to this, come find me on UseNet.

Every point you make I've heard people demand of Apple. I think they've been sued over a few of them. Is Apple really the model you want for WOTC and D&D? I love Apple products and I sure don't want D&D to go down that path.

I may be old but I do have 26 years of software engineering under my belt. I think I understand much of the technology pretty well.

 

[SlyFlourish]

As someone who uses DDB, I simply don't see all of the issues others see.

First, when I DM I ask people to join my campaign I've created on DDB. It doesn't matter what they've purchased, I simply tell them what content I allow. It's no different than if we were using books, they could always try to bring in some 3PP feature I don't care for. It's easier to control now, I can review their character sheet and see all the details I want. Meanwhile on the "Home" edit page of the character I can see what they allowed content they have checked.

If we want to add add special features to our PCs from a 3PP that's not supported we have some flexibility by checking "Homebrew Content" along with simply adding notes and modifications. May not be as convenient as being built in, but DDB cannot stop us from using other options.

I use DDB because of the convenience and because it makes it easier for me and my players. I wouldn't mind PDFs, but if I'm ever concerned about my stuff going away it's not like I can't get the books.

How cool would it be if there was an import feature that let you drop in all the details of a subclass with one click? Why shouldn't we ask for that? Sure, they're probably more interested in building their own walls up but we might as well ask for what we want.

 

[mamba]

Sorry, but this list reads more like "old man doesn't understand technology".

no, but like old man has a good grasp on technology

The iPhone changed how we connect with each other and the world. Apple also has a walled garden it controls from its apps to its accessories (the latter needed European regulators change). There is a perfectly viable option to it (android) but iPhone remains in the minds of the populace the standard for smart phones. And Apple hasn't been exactly open with sharing with android. Apple maps, iMessage and other staple apps aren't available. Further, they make it hard to move to Android and keep your info. They are everything you accuse WotC of.

yes, and that just means Apple has the same issues, not that these issues do not exist

At least with phones there are really only two blocks, and neither one will be so dominant to squeeze out the other for quite some time. This is not true for TTRPGs / VTTs however

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't use DDB, but almost all of my players do. So I feel like I have a dog in this fight. Personally I agree with Mr. Shea on all points. I'm concerned with WotC consolidating their already-massive market share. I don't want "Can I get this on DDB?" to be a critical path question where "No" means the product doesn't get built.

To me, one of the ancillary benefits of switching to Level Up as a base is that it made it necessary to get off D&D Beyond. I just don't trust cloud-based data storage and walled gardens I have to rent material on.

 

[Micah Sweet]

My point is they don't have to do the OGL thing and never did. They have a strong monopoly on D&D and that's through D&D Beyond. They could easily strengthen it in ways where many people would say "well, that's an obvious business advantage" like stopping the publication of material on other platforms, not releasing anything else into the CC so no one can use the 2024 new D&D tech outside of Beyond, releasing more and more stuff as digital only on Beyond (my friend noted that they put out three digital only products in three weeks). They could start releasing subclasses exclusively to D&D Beyond. There's so much they could do to lock down D&D 5e content going forward to just D&D Beyond and it would give them almost exactly what they wanted out of their OGL move without having to revoke the OGL.

If a significant percentage of D&D players and DMs become dependent on D&D Beyond, it won't matter if people are publishing awesome material using the CC-released 5.1 SRD. Those products could lose a significant marketshare by not being on Beyond at all.

Boy, I'd love to be wrong about all of this, and there's a good chance I am. But, in the meantime, how does it hurt us to strengthen up our own hold on the hobby and ask for things from WOTC that would genuinely improve our experience with the game?

• Give us PDFs.
• Give us a D&D Beyond API.
• Keep supporting other platforms and expand to even more.

I assume WotC plans to all these things. As you say, it gets them what they want while largely avoiding public ire.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Don’t get me wrong, nothing they can do now is as bad as trying to revoke the OGL – maybe trying to revoke the CC but that’s crazy talk.

Consolidating power in D&D Beyond isn’t anywhere near as dangerous as revoking the OGL.

But companies trying to earn back $150 million can try lots of things we don’t want to squeeze more money out of us. If the number of D&D and 5e players plateaus or dwindles, we might see all kinds of shenanigans to increase shareholder value.

What are the real practical risks? This is a fantastic question. Here are some thoughts.

• Our players only want to use stuff in Beyond and toss aside hundreds of awesome character options available elsewhere.
• Our players expect everything in Beyond is allowed at our games and anything not in Beyond doesn’t exist.
• Critical features never get implemented but we just live with it and the whole game suffers.
• Being on Beyond or not becomes a new way for WOTC to gatekeep the 5e community. Publishers and customers feel like only those blessed to be on Beyond are “real” publishers and thus demotivates other creators from making things.
• Players become so used to Beyond that they can’t imagine and don’t want to play 5e without it.
• WOTC treats Beyond as the official source for the rules even beyond the printed books. They change things all over, sometimes not even telling us where they’ve done so, so that we can’t trust our printed books to be the “official” rules. To quote Zuul from Ghostbusters, there is no D&D. Only Beyond.
• The whole 5e community ends up treating 5e like every other video game where a central publisher controls everything and we must hope they steer things the way we want instead of us realizing we can take this game anywhere we want without their permission.

I could probably keep going. It’s a good thought provoking question, that’s for sure.

All very real fears I have. Thanks and darn you for laying them all out like this!