Warlocks = evil?

[Irda Ranger]

The part you keep ignoring is, "if you choose to play it that way." There's no more requirement to play D&D as "black and white" than you are required to play halflings as river-dwelling merchants.

Hey, if you don't want to play with the Alignment mechanics as written, that's cool. I'm just talking about the RAW, where Paladins can Detect Evil at will, Baalors are Chaotic Evil (capital letters, no kidding), Gods only answer the prayers of priests with alignments no more than one step removed from their own, etc. etc.

That's quite a bit different from some fluff on preferred terrain when there are no mechanics to back it up.

Now, I realize that Alignment is getting re-examined, but I would expect that Devils are still Evil (capital E). Shadowy and Feral sound "Creepy/Unaligned" as opposed to Evil, but we're still lacking an obviously "Good" choice, as others besides me have noted.

Core classes shouldn't have to jump through hoops to be Good. I don't want the "Good Warlock" to be the "Good Drow" of 4E.

I understand you want to play it that way,

Actually, I don't. I don't use alignments, Paladins cannot Detect Evil as such, etc. etc. I never played Alignments as straight-jackets, but they were objectively measurable descriptions of your past actions (your alignment can change).

but the repeated insistence that everyone else is wrong is really becoming repetitive. The term "badwrongfun" comes to mind.

I raise the point once in the threads as they come up. I also respond to people who engage in conversation. That's it.

And if my arguments seem repetitive, it's only because I have not seen any arguments on this thread (or any of the others where it has come up) that has caused me to reevaluate them.

 

[pawsplay]

To me, "the stars and the darkness between them" sounds like "Celestial Lords, but warlocks are still goth."

 

[Zurai]

And if my arguments seem repetitive, it's only because I have not seen any arguments on this thread (or any of the others where it has come up) that has caused me to reevaluate them.

What about the fact that Warlocks can have Fey as their patrons, and Fey are (usually) not Evil? Chaotic, yes. Evil, not really - or at least, not required to be. I noticed you studiously ignored four different people mentioning that point.

 

[Gloombunny]

Hey, if you don't want to play with the Alignment mechanics as written, that's cool. I'm just talking about the RAW, where Paladins can Detect Evil at will, Baalors are Chaotic Evil (capital letters, no kidding), Gods only answer the prayers of priests with alignments no more than one step removed from their own, etc. etc.

Where's the RAW that says it's impossible to use demonic power for good ends? In fact, isn't the 3.5 warlock a RAW that says the opposite?

Now, I realize that Alignment is getting re-examined, but I would expect that Devils are still Evil (capital E). Shadowy and Feral sound "Creepy/Unaligned" as opposed to Evil, but we're still lacking an obviously "Good" choice, as others besides me have noted.

Core classes shouldn't have to jump through hoops to be Good. I don't want the "Good Warlock" to be the "Good Drow" of 4E.

What's the obviously good choice for a fighter? Or wizard, or rogue? Do PCs of those classes have to jump through hoops to be good?

 

[UndeadScottsman]

Whoops, misread your post. NM.

 

[Glyfair]

How is "fey" a dark and/or evil power source?

It's actually pretty common for the "fey" source of power to be ignored in discussions about the warlock.

The 3.5 Warlock is "wild and dangerous" not necessarily "evil and goth." In 4E is seems they are keeping some of the flavor, but widening it a bit.

BTW, another mention in the warlock write-up is that they are marked by these powers, but can use these power for their own ends. Think something like Reaper for a heroic character that's tied to darkness by pact.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

An elven fey-powered warlock would make perfect RP sense as a good-aligned character with good motivations and a good power source. You CAN play him as a scary unseelie type, but "faithful protector of the forest" works just as easily.

I do hope the elemental source isn't specifically demonic, though - one pure-evil power source (devilish/infernal) and one even-worse-than-pure-evil power source (Cthulhu Inside™) is plenty of nastiness for anyone.

 

[pawsplay]

It's actually pretty common for the "fey" source of power to be ignored in discussions about the warlock.

The 3.5 Warlock is "wild and dangerous" not necessarily "evil and goth." In 4E is seems they are keeping some of the flavor, but widening it a bit.

BTW, another mention in the warlock write-up is that they are marked by these powers, but can use these power for their own ends. Think something like Reaper for a heroic character that's tied to darkness by pact.

In fact, in 3.5, you can play a Hellfire Warlock as a tragic sort of heroic figure.

 

[Terramotus]

Hey, if you don't want to play with the Alignment mechanics as written, that's cool. I'm just talking about the RAW, where Paladins can Detect Evil at will, Baalors are Chaotic Evil (capital letters, no kidding), Gods only answer the prayers of priests with alignments no more than one step removed from their own, etc. etc.

That's quite a bit different from some fluff on preferred terrain when there are no mechanics to back it up.

I don't think that's quite as solid as you make it out to be. Eberron has a totally different alignment system, and the only rule changes that it requires are a paragraph at the beginning...

Tone and attitude. The campaign combines traditional medieval D&D fantasy with swashbuckling action and dark adventure. Alignments are relative gauges of a character or creature’s viewpoint, and not absolute barometers of affiliation and action; nothing is exactly as it seems. Alignments are blurred, so that it’s possible to encounter an evil silver dragon or a good vampire. Traditionally goodaligned creatures may wind up opposed to the heroes, while well-known agents of evil might provide assistance when it’s least expected.

And a note later on mentioning that clerics don't need to keep their alignment in line with their deity and that spells of the Good and Evil descriptors can be cast by anyone. That's it. It seems like the game has a pretty weak dependence on moral absolutism if a couple of paragraphs can completely change it.

 

[Hussar]

Sigh. What am I talking to myself here? The flavour for tying demons and the like to non-evil or even good characters IS ALREADY DONE! Read the Tome of Magic. Instead of living demons, you use vestiges. There, no evil. Weird and creepy, sure, but, not evil.