Warlocks = evil?

[Bishmon]

They're called "clerics" and "paladins".

Well, good clerics and paladins deal more with good deities, the same way evil clerics and paladins deal with evil deities. Evil warlocks deal with evil outsiders the same way that good warlocks deal with good...oh...wait...

That's another thing that surprises me. They opened up the paladin to encompass more character options, but it seems they're putting many of his old restrictions, albeit in a slightly different form, on the warlock. If the paladin can now be outright evil getting his power from very evil sources, why can't the warlock be outright good getting his power from very good sources? It's an odd design contradiction, in my opinion.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Making a deal with Evil sources like Demons is cocky, but it doesn't have to be evil.

I just happened to think of Mostin the Metagnostic from Tales of Wyre, who bound a powerful succubus into service as a talking head in a glass orb. He forced service out of the demon because he was able to, and didn't much care that it was evil, being utterly ideologically Neutral himself (being an alienist, he was barely even on the evil/good/lawful/chaotic continuum anymore. His alignment was on an axis that would probably be described as similar to the way imaginary numbers can be represented as existing on an axis perpendicular to the real number line). The demon's knowledge was used for the cause of good, to the continual frustration of the demon, who could not fail to provide truthful information when asked.

 

[Wormwood]

So one bit of flavor the warlock could have (and this was in the document at one point, though it's gone now) was drawing on pacts that had been handed down. For instance, a pact formed between devils and tieflings in the time of the ancient tiefling empire might still apply today, and the devils can't take that power back. So the descendants of the pact-makers can use these infernal powers however they want—and nothing angers the devils more than seeing their power used for good.

That is pure awesome.

I assume the current fluff supprts similar concepts supporting good warlock PCs?

 

[Zurai]

I assume the current fluff supprts similar concepts supporting good warlock PCs?

Yep.

Born of a supernatural bloodline, a warlock seeks to master the perilous magic that suffuses his soul.

Many warlocks are champions of dark and chaotic powers. Long ago, they (or in some cases, their ancestors) forged grim pacts with dangerous extraplanar powers, trading portions of their souls in exchange for the supernatural power.

Warlocks are born, not made. Some are the descendants of people who trafficked with demons and devils long ago. Some seek out the dark powers as youths, driven by ambition or the desire for power, but a few blameless individuals are simply marked out by the supernatural forces as conduits and tools.

In fact, many warlocks are created by nonevil powers -- wild or fey forces that can be every bit as dangerous as demons or devils.

Note that it says dangerous powers, not necessarily evil ones. It specifically points out that not all possible origins for a warlock's power are evil, and says that many if not all warlocks are born into it rather than actually seeking out a pact.

I find that the vast majority of people that hate warlocks because "they're forced to make deals with the devil" don't bother to actually read the fluff.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

The warlock being made core and seemingly still only drawing from dark power sources is easily one of my biggest disappointments for 4E.

This is my issue with it. Having a class that is able to draw from dark and sinister sources is fine with me. Having a PC try to be good and coming a dark history is fine. I wouldn't mind having a Drizzt d'Warlock in the party but after the second or third it'll get old.

Where is the Good (witha capital G) power source? If this came out in PHB3 or PHB4 then I wouldn't care so much, but this is the PHB1. Everything should be wide open (yes, I had issues with the Paladin - why did only the Lawful Good gods get the Holy Warriors? (Lawful/Good/Neutral - yes, I know)).

Fey may turn out to be a Good power source but it sounds more Nature/Neutral to me (and I think there should be one of these).

 

[Andor]

Those who have problems with Warlocks might try reading the Chalion books by Lois Bujold. In those books a sorcerer gets his powers from a demon, from demonic possesion in fact. And demons are, by definition, creatures of chaos. It is as impossible to use demonic magic to increase order as it is to use fire to make something colder.

None the less, there is an enormous difference between a sorcerer who commands his demon, and one whose demon is in command. You even have temple sorcerers, who are trained in how to control their demons and in how to use their powers for good. Paladin of Souls btw is the book with the most information about demons and temple sorcerers.

My favorite quote from that book. "Do you know your horse is possesed by a demon?" "That explains a great deal about that horse." "Well, it's really more of a small, stupid, half-formed elemental." "That explains even more."

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Fey may turn out to be a Good power source but it sounds more Nature/Neutral to me (and I think there should be one of these).

just out of curiosity, is the Fey source confirmed, or is this just a persistent ENW assumption about the described Feral source?

I'm actually not a fan of classes that require an external source for their abilities to begin with, so having a thematicly limited list just makes that a little worse.

 

[Andor]

I'm actually not a fan of classes that require an external source for their abilities to begin with, so having a thematicly limited list just makes that a little worse.

Uh... Isn't that everybody except the monk then? And maybe the psion?

Clerics need gods and a holy symbol. Wizards need magic and implements and maybe a spell book. Even a fighter needs a sword to do well.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well, good clerics and paladins deal more with good deities, the same way evil clerics and paladins deal with evil deities. Evil warlocks deal with evil outsiders the same way that good warlocks deal with good...oh...wait...

That sounds like a GRE question: "Good clerics are to good deities as evil clerics are to evil deities. Evil warlocks are to evil outsiders as good warlocks are to __________."

I don't see why we need absolute coverage in potential power sources for warlocks in the PHB. I've already suggested that they could add in a "construction kit" not unlike those found in Arcana Evolved for witches and champions, to build your own warlock. I've also suggested a long list of potential warlock power sources in one of the original "oh noes, warlocks are forced to be evil" threads. If you're dead set on playing a character who gains power from a pact with a good outsider, play a cleric and wait for the inevitable supplement detailing good warlock power sources. Or, and this is the tricky one, just say that you serve a good power and that your powers all have special effects that include nimbuses of light and angelic choirs rather than hellfire and spooky.

When it boils down to it, the differences between the various warlocks are likely to be purely mechanical, if there are any differences at all. We might see three different power lists, or just one list. In any case, any warlock list is a set of mechanical effects with flavour attached. It might be a pain in the butt to strip out the flavour of an infernal set of powers and replace them with celestial flavour, but I don't suppose there's any way they can stop you from doing so. Instead of discorporating into bats, you turn into butterflies, or babies with wings, or flying sugar-free chocolate, etc.

The bottom line here is that the warlock is supposed to be the class with creepy dark arcane powers. It was part of the draw of the class when it appeared in Complete Arcane (and they eventually released a celestial version in Complete Mage, so I don't expect they'll leave you completely out in the cold). Sure, you could build one that doesn't have them, but there's no reason to clog the book with optional builds designed to appease messageboard contrarians. Leave that for the supplements, since a flavour text change is all that's required to turn the class into sunshine and rainbows.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Help me with this one:

Based on the info so far, Warlocks draw their power from evil sources. They cast stuff like Soul Ruin which sounds all sorts of evil magic.

How can this class be most any alignnment?

How can this class play nice-nice with a good-aligned character in the party?

To me, the infernal power sourcing sounds too limiting. I like the idea of a planar empowered spellcaster who could choose the infernal planes for power, but the Warlock appears to be the new assassin...aka, the PC class that never fit well with any party back in 1e.

Your thoughts?

I would say that the flavour attached to the Warlock class will be no more or less a problem than the Flavour attached to the Barbarian class.

If you are the sort that absolutely must use every bit of the flavour of a class, no matter how foul and bitter you may find that flavour, than you have a problem. If your the sort who would not care much if a player presented you with a Dwarven Barbarian, despite having the Dwarven trope of feudal minors and metal workers clash with the Barbarian trope of feral and wild men who live in tribal societies and have minimal technology, than you will probably have no issues with someone presenting you with a Lawful Good Warlock.

END COMMUNICATION