D&D 5E What is the Sorcerer?

[Micah Sweet]

The inherent gift is demonstrated in game play through spells. Spell that come from within. Innate spellcasting, right?

Your description is really good. Makes me think this idea is more like a superhero than any other class. Born with special powers, exposure to magical "radiation", etc. I wonder if that is why it gets so much pushback from some players?


Seems like the subclasses should be more themed in restricting spells, focusing on the gift the sorcerer has.

Maybe just go full on superhero. Not spellcaster at all. They wouldn't "cast spells", just use there spell like powers. Something like invocations might be more appropriate.


It would be fun to do that. Make it part of the game. If Warlocks bargained for magic from different sources instead just having one patron.


An elemental sorcerer then could cover fire, cold, as fire, ice.

Good discussion.

I support the "mutant menace" approach to the sorcerer. A buddy of mine wrote a short campaign for my birthday in 3e that basically a post-apocalypic Marvel Earth.

 

[Flights of Fancy]

I support the "mutant menace" approach to the sorcerer. A buddy of mine wrote a short campaign for my birthday in 3e that basically a post-apocalypic Marvel Earth.

This seems like something that would make a good setting point: sorcerers are hunted like the mutant menace was, but by wizards who view their innate magic as wrong. Might be too harsh for some though.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This seems like something that would make a good setting point: sorcerers are hunted like the mutant menace was, but by wizards who view their innate magic as wrong. Might be too harsh for some though.

Sounds good to me.

 

[Mephista]

No problem, that makes more sense.

Then does this: "the modern sorcerer is a mix of psion, sorcerer, and a few other odds and ends" mean the sorcerer lacks identity?

The opposte, I'd say. the commonalities of its roots are what makes me confident of the 5e sorcerer identity. It's something built up over the past 10 years since 5e first came out.

So lack of support from WotC in the 5E sorcerer design leads to its lack of identity. It has no supporting mechanics other than maybe sorcerery points used to fuel spells (not for metamagics).

At least until Tasha's. They started doing better, but that's been a long time for people to have their own thoughts on the sorcerer before that book.

I understood this design choice myself.

Maybe they were expecting more people to customize subclasses, given how metamagic like some are? Evoker, I'm looking at you. Same with Enchanter 14.

the problem is there really isn't any checks and balances for casters.

There's a very few, but raerely are used since they aren't fun- instant shutdowns usually are. And this is a game.

Then now there is also not really an identity for the warlock? Either they are psuedo-clerics or pseudo-sage/wizards?

This is more flexibility and options for individual games to play with, not a lack of identity. The warlock is still all about the relationship with the patron. Different games have different needs.

We want some structure with the class to give it identity, but freedom within that structure to make other choices.

 

[Flights of Fancy]

The opposte, I'd say. the commonalities of its roots are what makes me confident of the 5e sorcerer identity. It's something built up over the past 10 years since 5e first came out.

But what "commonalities" are there in a mix "of psion, sorcerer, and a few other odds and ends"?

At least until Tasha's. They started doing better, but that's been a long time for people to have their own thoughts on the sorcerer before that book.

What supporting mechanics did Tasha's add for sorcerers? I don't remember seeing anything.

Maybe they were expecting more people to customize subclasses, given how metamagic like some are? Evoker, I'm looking at you. Same with Enchanter 14.

Huh? I am not following your comment here in response to my comment about metamagics going only to sorcerers.

There's a very few, but raerely are used since they aren't fun- instant shutdowns usually are. And this is a game.

There aren't any, though, not "very few". And checks and balances are there to be just that, checks and balances, because otherwise things get out of control. It is a game, but denying checks and balances is the case of having your cake and eating it, too.

This is more flexibility and options for individual games to play with, not a lack of identity. The warlock is still all about the relationship with the patron. Different games have different needs.

We want some structure with the class to give it identity, but freedom within that structure to make other choices.

That's fair, but it seems similar to the issue in the threads about sorcerer origins regarding bloodline or event or whatever.

 

[Minigiant]

I support the "mutant menace" approach to the sorcerer. A buddy of mine wrote a short campaign for my birthday in 3e that basically a post-apocalypic Marvel Earth.

1. Take all the X-Men and BoEM powers.
2. Convert them to spells.
3. Add them to Sorcerer spell list
4. Remove all other spells but Chromatic Orb
5. ???
6. The only place you're going is down, bub.
7. Nananananaa Nana
8. Nananananaa Nana
9. Nananananaa Nana
10. Nana

 

[Mephista]

But what "commonalities" are there in a mix "of psion, sorcerer, and a few other odds and ends"?

The inherent gift trope, the affinity-as-subclass, the certainty its not all bloodlines, etc.

What supporting mechanics did Tasha's add for sorcerers? I don't remember seeing anything.

Mostly? It's mechanics for subclass, feats and diffent sorcerer-only magic items that (imho) effectively function as patches to the main class.

There's lots of little details scattered around that add up.

Huh? I am not following your comment here in response to my comment about metamagics going only to sorcerers.

Some Wizard subclasses get the same mechanics as a metamagic ability. Famously, the first Evoker ability is a better version Careful Spell metamagic w/o cost. Enchanter at level 14 has a school-restricted version of Twin Spell.

I wonder if the intent was for wizards getting their own metamagics via subclass, and not actually restricting metamagic to Sorcerer.

There aren't any, though, not "very few".

The need for Vocal, Material, Somatic components. Counterspells and anti-magic. Presumed adventuring day having at least 6 encouters with not enough spell slots.

Very few DMs leverage these, and for good reasons, but they do exist.

's fair, but it seems similar to the issue in the threads about sorcerer origins regarding bloodline or event or whatever.

Its similar, but it's mostly a question of degrees imho. "Too much of a good thing" or "poison in small amounts is medicine" are good ways of putting it. it's a balancing act.

 

[MoonSong]

If I were king of D&D, the sorcerer wouldn't be a class - it would be one of a suite of subclasses, one for each mystic bloodline/class combination. No reason it has to be many spells, or even any at all, if it doesn't fit the theme. (Why would a Barbarian with a Draconic bloodline cast spells? What extra oomph would the bloodline give a wizard? What can the baker down the street do with it? etc...). And maybe a set of feats for those who just want a bit of flavor around the edges. -- Every so often you put out a new splat book of a few more bloodlines with the associated subclasses.

(I wonder if that is what I would do instead of having the Tiefling/Aasimar/Genasi too - assuming I didn't care about sales in the former case).

I would make it from the other side, sorcerer as the default caster, everyting else gated behind heavy prerreqs and adventures don't assume you have anything but sorcerers.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Sorcerers are X-Men
Wizards are Stark Industries
Sorcerers are Bang Babies
Wizards are the Batfamily

Deep cut detected and appreciated.

Though I'd rather there be a different class for mutates.

 

[Mephista]

1. Take all the X-Men and BoEM powers.
2. Convert them to spells.
3. Add them to Sorcerer spell list
4. Remove all other spells but Chromatic Orb
5. ???
6. The only place you're going is down, bub.
7. Nananananaa Nana
8. Nananananaa Nana
9. Nananananaa Nana
10. Nana

Hey. There's an xkdc for this!