When the Unspeakable Happens

[Rechan]

Maybe a wounded monster fled to another area, getting reinforcements. The PCs could have opened too many doors at one time. The PCs could ahve just blown their stealth. Or you did it intentionally because you're a Rat Bastard DM.

Either way, the PCs now find themselves in one encounter with two encounters worth of monsters.

When in this situation, what are the rules? What is the DM supposed to do, and what should he do?

Namely:
1) How is XP handled?
2) How about Healing/Encounter Powers?

For #2, would a short rest to allow the PCs to recharge encounter powers, but not healing surges be kosher, or should they be stuck with their normal encounter powers, and then tough it out with AWs?

 

[Griogre]

As has been mentioned other places it is very bad for the party to trigger more than one encounter.

Rulewise:
1) XP is handled as normal.
2) Without completing a short rest, characters can not recover encounter powers or cure up using healing surges.

This can be very bad for a party, needless to say - and you may be looking at a TPK because it.

IMO, from the DMing point of view you need to be very careful about how you build encounter areas so you give the party every opportunity to have a reasonable chance of avoiding triggering two encounters by accident.

In my case if the party does it to themself I will play it out. At mid heroic to higher levels the characters will probably survive because they will use dailies, healing potions, magic item dailies and second winds. By the way players often remember fights like this because of the desperation.

What happens if you feel it it is your fault though, and don't want to kill them because of them? The easiest thing to do is to convert all of the second encounter to minions other than maybe one or two monsters.

Someone else posted on the board a very simple way to convert any monster to a minion on the fly was to give it one hit point and have the monster always do min damage and strip the monster of everything but basic attacks and "racial" powers. This is a great way to convert monsters on the fly and "save" the party - don't convert elites or solo's this way, though - just pull them from the encounter. If you do this make sure you only give minion XP.

In 4E it really is bad to trigger two encounters, you need to make sure you players know this so they can work to avoid it.

 

[Rechan]

This can be very bad for a party, needless to say - and you may be looking at a TPK because it.

Oh, I know it can. The issue isn't avoidance, at least as far as this thread is concerned, but it is "IF it happens... what is to be done about it?"

IMO, from the DMing point of view you need to be very careful about how you build encounter areas so you give the party every opportunity to have a reasonable chance of avoiding triggering two encounters by accident.

In other threads, on the topic of "Realistic monster reactions", it's often said that the monster should flee if it's outnumbered and wounded. Of course, the obvious conclusion from "Monster fleeing" is that it's going to go get help.

So if it's impossible for the monster to get help, then having it flee for reinforcements is rather pointless.

Also, I have seen at least one DM here who states that two encounters in 1 is an uncommon occurrence, just to get PCs to use up all of their surges.

 

[nittanytbone]

It might be reasonable to assume that the reinforcing monsters take 5 minutes to get geared up and ready to move out.

After all, the fleeing monster has to:

1) Get back to the lair.
2) Convince the leader that there's a threat.
3) The leader needs to mobilize the Quick Reaction Force, if the monsters have one.
4) The QRF needs to don armor and grab weapons/other equipment.
5) The QRF needs to proceed back towards the encounter area, likely at a cautious speed if they fear ambush or are accompanied by a leader type.

That would give the players time to squeeze in a short rest and refresh powers.

If the monsters are particularly well organized or alert maybe they will interrupt the short rest. In this case, I would either make the "counterattack" about 1/2 to 3/4 of a standard encounter (maybe two standard monsters and four minions vs. a standard 4 person party) so that its respectable but not overwhelming.

Or, I would make the PCs aware of the QRF in some way. That way the PCs have a CHOICE to decide how to deal with it. Perhaps they'll opt to use a ritual to divert or delay the QRF. Maybe they'll divert a lot of resources to stopping leakers/runners from sounding an alarm. Maybe they'll raid the lair and kill off the QRF before returning later to polish off the other guards at their leisure. Perhaps they'll try to hide from the QRF. Maybe they'll just gut it out and be prepared for that second encounter. In any event, there's a choice.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

If you feel cinematic, you could at some point in the fight decide that the adrenaline kicks in and encounter powers are refreshed. You might even award an AP if appropriate (and recharge the possibility to use it).

That way they have 2 encounters worth of ressource except for the opportunity to spend HS between the fights.

This is only fair because typically you don't trigger two encounters at the same time unless the adventure was designed that way. It's virtually never really the PCs fault and more the DM's or the adventure's design.

Maybe a wounded monster fled to another area getting reinforcements.

If fleeing for reinforcement is a monster's option, it is natural they do it, it is extremely hard for the PC to prevent and is very much part of the adventure design. Therefore, a raised alarm has to be seen as a normal occurence. If the reinforcement ends up making survival virtually impossible, then that was poor design. Simple as that. Good design should simply make reinforcement a manageable but tough encounter while giving an advantage to the PC if they succeed in preventing the alarm from being raised.

The PCs could have opened too many doors at one time.

There is a problem with that; if the doors in question are in the same geographical area, the monsters within are all part of the same encounter. And they'd have heard the sounds of battle even if the PCs hadn't opened the door anyway. Most published adventures feature encounters that span several rooms; basically all the rooms from which one would reasonably expect monsters to hear the battle or be called to join the battle. Sane design means that all these monsters be counted as one encounter and be balanced accordingly.

Now, if PCs actually ran deep in the dungeon to trigger two different encounters from two distinct area... That's a bad decision on their part. That's also a looney toon scenario; I have never seen actual players do it. Usually, when in a fight, they finish it before exploring further!

The PCs could ahve just blown their stealth.

And that should only bring one encounter on their head. I have a hard time imagining the catastrophic stealth failure that would trigger two encounters! Again a looney toon scenario.

Or you did it intentionally because you're a Rat Bastard DM.

That's more likely!

But that's more along the line of unfair than rat bastard. If you want the encounter to appear simple but then escalate it with reinforcement to create a gauntlet feel, calculate all of it at once.

Present a level +0 fight but then the alarm is triggered and more monsters keep arriving, balancing out to a level +4 or even +5 encounter. This is really only as hard as level +2 or +3 because all the monsters weren't present at the same time; this is even more true if you use minions (PCs should be able to put them down as they arrive) and completely false if you use elites (PCs won't be able to put them down fast enough and reinforcement will soon overwhelm the PCs).

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

One of the things that irritates me about one of my DMs is his habit of having Quick Reaction forces sitting on their toes, ready to go RIGHT NOW. All day. Every day.

It irritates me to no end.

Brad

 

[Khuxan]

It's worth remembering that a round is only six seconds. When you factor in running to fetch reinforcements, waking them up/finding them from where they're scattered/get them to file orderly out of the dining hall/calling back a patrol in a different part of the dungeon, then getting them armed and armored (putting on armor takes around 5 minutes, if I remember correctly) and then getting them organised to march to the scene, the combat will almost certainly be over by the time reinforcements arrive. That gives the PCs time to regroup, retreat, barricade doors, etc.

 

[Rechan]

1) Get back to the lair.
2) Convince the leader that there's a threat.

Or he could run into the nearest room with armed allies. You know, a guard running to alert other guards.

But that's a side-issue, and I dont' want to derail this thread from talking about Two Encounters in One and addressing it.

For instance, there's also the issue of encouraging PCs to retreat when the Second Encounter begins to flood in.

 

[Rechan]

This is only fair because typically you don't trigger two encounters at the same time unless the adventure was designed that way. It's virtually never really the PCs fault and more the DM's or the adventure's design.

I don't know "if the adventure was intentionally designed that way" or "The DM did it intentionally" are the only solutions.

One example is in Keep on the Shadowfell. You have an area where some kobolds are standing outside of a waterfall. A larger force of kobolds are behind the waterfall, in their cave.

If the fight 1) Takes too long, DMs have had the kobolds inside react, and come out. Other DMs 2) have had the outside kobolds retreat inside. Either way, this combines two encounters in one.

Not because the DM is being unfair, or because the adventure was designed specifically to combine those two encounters, but because it just seemed like smart tactics for the kobolds at the time.

 

[nittanytbone]

Or he could run into the nearest room with armed allies. You know, a guard running to alert other guards.

Sure... But he still needs to move there, and talk to the sergeant/low level flunky in charge of the force. And such a leader might indeed need to be persuaded to jump in there.

ROUTED MONSTER: "Boss, there's some adventurers in there?"
SGT: "Really? Everyone, get up, grab your gear! What's going on?"
ROUTED MONSTER: "Well, they've killed everyone!"
SGT: "Hrm. On second thought, let's go ask the Chief before we jump in there. I sure don't want to get slaughtered!"

I think there are three main scenarios with intelligent, tactical, organized occupants that maintain a QRF and are expecting trouble:

- Strong leadership, centralized QRF. This is most likely for lairs that have multiple access points to defend. The monsters will want their "reserve" to be able to get to any trouble spot easily, so it will be in the middle of the lair. Additionally, the leaders will want protection from raiders that utilize the multiple access points, so they'll want the QRF as bodyguards. This scenario easily rationalizes a 5 minute delay for transit time.

- Strong leadership, forward QRF. This is most likely for lairs that have a strategic strongpoint to hold. If there's only one access point, then I'd expect it to be well defended, and the QRF's job is likely to counterattack immediately to retake the main gates/access tunnel/teleport circle/whatever. The leaders are aware of this situation and ensure that the QRF is well led to quickly respond, although this exposes leaders to a lot of personal danger. This is the most dangerous situation as a QRF might well respond in <5 minutes. However, if the PCs are smart and find a way around the single access point the monsters will be in trouble! Additionally, the PCs likely have a chance to kill off an important leader early in the fight and then withdraw to lick their wounds.

- Weak leadership, forward QRF. I find this more likely than the above scenario. Most leader-monsters, being selfish and evil, probably don't want to be too far forward. Forward guard posts are boring, lack creature comforts, and are potentially hazardous. Instead, they'll likely be comfortable in the center of the lair. This scenario makes a delay quite likely as the forward QRF waits for the leaders to authorize its forward deployment, especially if the forward QRF fears being mauled by the party that just killed off all of the first batch of monsters!

I find it unlikely that disorganized opponents maintain a strong QRF. A disorganized foe would be likely to:
(A) Have a weak QRF -- perhaps orc warriors trickle out of the lair a few without any significant organization.
(B) Take more time to mobilize. By definition, a disorganized force is slower to assemble!
(C) Is not coordinated with the original monsters. Perhaps an opportunistic hydra jumps into the melee, attacking PCs and the original monsters alike without discrimination.

All of those scenarios are viable and create tactical options for the PCs to make it surviveable.