Where is metamagic going?

[RangerWickett]

*quietly holds up a banner that reads "Buy Elements of Magic for flexible magic"*

 

[Li Shenron]

Personally, I think metamagic is overrated.

I would like to know more about your opinion... Why do think they are overrated?

I sometimes think that metamagic feats are quite "costly" because compared to other feats they may be effectively used more rarely. This at least applies to the "safety metamagic" such as Still Spell and Silent Spell.

Another thing is that you can say you pay twice for them, once when spending the feat and again when using it, since you need to increase the spell level.

On the other hand, I love playing metamagic-oriented sorcerers exactly because of the flexibility they have, so I am well pleased to spend my feats on metamagic

Clearly, it wouldn't be the same when playing other spellcasters, but they have other edges. For example, item creation feats are more useful for casters with lots of spells known.

 

[WizarDru]

Now to one side these things are not terrible themselves, but it seems to me like they are addressing the problem from the point of view of the preparation spellcasters only. I mean, it seems like the publishers are thinking of the poor wizards and clerics who cannot effectively use metamagic on the fly, but these cheap ways to circumvent the limitations forget that there is a whole population of sorcerers in the world who actually make a living out of it! And guess what? No one is doing anything to help sorcerers lessen their big limitations of few spells known, it's totally unfair!

No, it's really not. Metamagic is extremely expensive, in terms of slot preparation, and memorization casters find it less useful than spontaneous casters. Feat rods apply equally to both types of caster, so they're a non-issue.

Consider this: let's say we have a wizard and a sorceror. Both can cast fireball. The wizard needs to decide, at the start of the day, whether or not he'll need a superpowerful fireball or not. He chooses to Maximize and Empower his fireball, so that it does 90 points of damage. He sacrifices an eighth level slot for the privelege. Want to do it twice? That's another eighth level slot. Goobye Horrid Wilting. See ya later, Mind Blank. Don't forget to write, Protection from Spells.

Meanwhile, the sorceror wakes up late. He takes a quick shower, meets the party at the dungeon, and decides to cast a fireball. He maximizes and empowers it, and takes a full round action to cast it. He still has his eighth level slots. Then he does it again. AND AGAIN. And then he casts a Horrid Wilting...because he still has four or five of 'em left, if he wants.

The feat rods benefit sorcerors less, it's true...but they still get the benefit from a rod if they lack the feat. It just replicates their existing talent. And frankly, the prices for the rods are spot-on. Sorcerors also benefit just as much from a rod that lets them metamagic higher level spells.

A Wizard gets:

• Better Spell Selection
• Faster Spell Progression
• More Feats (Bonus Metamagic)
• More Expensive Metamagic

A Sorceror gets:

• More Spell Slots
• More Tactical Flexibility
• Cheaper Metamagic Use
• Smaller Spell Selection
• Slower Spell Progression

In short, the Sorceror's flexibility in the field is valuable enough to warrant the additional costs he pays elsewhere, and the wizard's use of metamagic is stymied traditionally to his need for preparation and 'hidden' cost of metamagic use. Metamagic Feat Rods benefit both classes, although wizards get a better deal out of it, but they are prohibitively expensive. Yes, the 'full-round' casting time means that one metamagic feat is useless to a sorceror and that metamagic has a cost to spontaneous casters...but the metamagic use by spontaneous casters is still a bargain, even at that price. Unearthed Arcana contains variant rules for eliminating the classes, racial prestige classes and for permanent dual-classing...but they don't really effect the core rules any more than an alternate system does. They're just rules variants.

So generally speaking, No, I don't see anything wrong with where metamagic's going. It's still an expensive cost to use, and rarely of much use until around fifth level. Wizards are jealous of their higher slots, and will rarely metamagic more than one or two 'specials' (such as the maximized empowered sonic fireball or silent dispel magic and so on).

 

[Thanee]

- metamagic rods: considering that you rarely need to use a specific metamagic feat more than 3/day, the limitation means almost nothing;

Note, that the rods can very well (and should IMHO) be read in the way, that a prepared caster needs to use them during preparation and cannot apply their effect spontaneously!

What worries me more is the trend to effectively remove the level cost on metamagic, actually. Having Divine Metamagic allow for persistent Divine Power at 7th level is just wrong, even though the cost is kinda high to get there.

Bye
Thanee

 

[WizarDru]

Note, that the rods can very well (and should IMHO) be read in the way, that a prepared caster needs to use them during preparation and cannot apply their effect spontaneously!

What worries me more is the trend to effectively remove the level cost on metamagic, actually. Having Divine Metamagic allow for persistent Divine Power at 7th level is just wrong, even though the cost is kinda high to get there.

How do you figure that it could be read that way?

From the SRD: " Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses."

It's quite clear from context that they mean using it at the time of casting (note the reference to casting in a threatened area and the reference to a full-round action for casting by a sorceror) and not at the time of memorization.

Persistent Divine Power at 7th level? How does that work? It's a 4th level spell that works for round/level. So at 7th level, that's 7 rounds. Assuming you have Extend Spell, you could make it last for 2 rounds/level. And to do that, you'd either need to have a metamagic feat rod for 11,000 gp (which should be a huge chunk of change for a 7th level character) or be an 11th level cleric. Either way, that's hardly persistent.

 

[Li Shenron]

Note, that the rods can very well (and should IMHO) be read in the way, that a prepared caster needs to use them during preparation and cannot apply their effect spontaneously!

I checked the SRD, and you may be right... I was kind of sure that the intention of metamagic rod was to help preparation-based casters.

What worries me more is the trend to effectively remove the level cost on metamagic, actually. Having Divine Metamagic allow for persistent Divine Power at 7th level is just wrong, even though the cost is kinda high to get there.

Which makes me think of another thing I don't like. When the authors look like they are "fixing" some limitations to wizards, they always make sure that it can also be taken by clerics. When they are giving something to clerics, they always make sure that it applies to divine casters only.

 

[hong]

Persistent Divine Power at 7th level? How does that work? It's a 4th level spell that works for round/level. So at 7th level, that's 7 rounds. Assuming you have Extend Spell, you could make it last for 2 rounds/level. And to do that, you'd either need to have a metamagic feat rod for 11,000 gp (which should be a huge chunk of change for a 7th level character) or be an 11th level cleric. Either way, that's hardly persistent.

Thanee is talking about the Divine Metamagic feat from Complete Divine, which lets you use metamagic without increasing the spell level by spending turning attempts.

 

[Henry]

True, but as a spontaneous caster you have to worry a whole lot more about getting your spell casting disrupted.

What Li Shenron is getting at, Telperion, is that Sorcerers don't have to worry about getting their spells disrupted any more than any other caster - it doesn't take 1 full round to cast meta'ed spells, it's a full-round action, same as a fighter doing his maximum attacks, or delivering a coup de grace. It's still a spell-casting, but suffers as much chance to disrupt as any standard action spell. It's a common rules misinterpretation, one that was cleared up in 3.5.

Sorcerers and Bards: Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them....If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.) For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.

 

[Zappo]

Random thoughts:

- metamagic a spontaneous casting takes the casting time to a "full round action", not to a "full round casting time". This only means that the spell takes effect immediately, but the character can't do a move-equivalent in the same round (edit: henry beats zappo).

- metamagic rods are handy for sorcerers too, because they enable them to save a feat. Sorcs don't get free feats, so that's a better advantage for then than for wizards.

 

[Henry]

How do you figure that it could be read that way?... It's quite clear from context that they mean using it at the time of casting (note the reference to casting in a threatened area and the reference to a full-round action for casting by a sorceror) and not at the time of memorization.

The part that bothers me is that it says that it "confers the ability to use the feat a given number of times per day." In order for the preparation-based caster to "use the feat", he'd have to use it at PREP time, would he not? A Prep-based caster cannot use Metamagic feats spontaneously, that much we agree on - but the argument could be solidly made that nothing about this rod changes the way the feat should be used, OTHER than the level adjustment.