Where is metamagic going?

[Belen]

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day.[/I]"

Actually, it is not clear. It implies that a caster may use that feat a number of times per day. It does not say that use of that feat is spontaneous. If they may use the feat three times per day, then it is implied that they may use it while prepping spells not spontaneously.

The rule is not clear.

 

[Zappo]

The part that bothers me is that it says that it "confers the ability to use the feat a given number of times per day." In order for the preparation-based caster to "use the feat", he'd have to use it at PREP time, would he not? A Prep-based caster cannot use Metamagic feats spontaneously, that much we agree on - but the argument could be solidly made that nothing about this rod changes the way the feat should be used, OTHER than the level adjustment.

Huh... you're right. The description says that it allows you to "use the feat", so there's no reason for which prep-casters should be able to spontaneously metamagic. I don't like rules-lawyering, but this is an important point. I wonder what the designer's intention was.

It's quite clear from context that they mean using it at the time of casting (note the reference to casting in a threatened area and the reference to a full-round action for casting by a sorceror) and not at the time of memorization.

That's what I thought up until 5 minutes ago. But it is true that the use of the rod at casting time is something we get from the context... it isn't explicitly mentioned. The context could very well be only referring to sorcerors.

 

[apsuman]

No, it's really not. Metamagic is extremely expensive, in terms of slot preparation, and memorization casters find it less useful than spontaneous casters. Feat rods apply equally to both types of caster, so they're a non-issue.

I disagree...

Consider this: let's say we have a wizard and a sorceror. Both can cast fireball. The wizard needs to decide, at the start of the day, whether or not he'll need a superpowerful fireball or not. He chooses to Maximize and Empower his fireball, so that it does 90 points of damage. He sacrifices an eighth level slot for the privelege. Want to do it twice? That's another eighth level slot. Goobye Horrid Wilting. See ya later, Mind Blank. Don't forget to write, Protection from Spells.

Except that the wizard has a few scrolls of Horrid Wilting that *HE* wrote, and a few scrolls of empowered fire ball, and maximized fireball, and empowered maximized fireball, and energy substitution cold fireball, and ...

And not to nitpick but an empowered maximized fireball will not do 90 points of damage.
(edit, ok, it *CAN* do 90 points of damage, but the real calculation is 60 + 10d6 * 0.5 -- making 90 unlikely )

Meanwhile, the sorceror wakes up late. He takes a quick shower, meets the party at the dungeon, and decides to cast a fireball. He maximizes and empowers it, and takes a full round action to cast it. He still has his eighth level slots. Then he does it again. AND AGAIN. And then he casts a Horrid Wilting...because he still has four or five of 'em left, if he wants.

Except that you left out that the only reason the sorcerer from above uses the maximized empowered fireball is because he doesn't know Horrid Wilting, because he only knows one eighth level spell right now.

In short, the Sorceror's flexibility in the field is valuable enough to warrant the additional costs he pays elsewhere, and the wizard's use of metamagic is stymied traditionally to his need for preparation and 'hidden' cost of metamagic use. Metamagic Feat Rods benefit both classes, although wizards get a better deal out of it, but they are prohibitively expensive. Yes, the 'full-round' casting time means that one metamagic feat is useless to a sorceror and that metamagic has a cost to spontaneous casters...but the metamagic use by spontaneous casters is still a bargain, even at that price. Unearthed Arcana contains variant rules for eliminating the classes, racial prestige classes and for permanent dual-classing...but they don't really effect the core rules any more than an alternate system does. They're just rules variants.

I really think the metamagic rods help the wizard far more than they do the sorcerer. If the wizard had to take a full round action to cast a metamagic rod spell, or if the sorcerer did not have to use a full round action to cast a metamagic rod spell, then I might think differently.
(second edit, well, having the wizard use the rod at prep time, and thus having to pick his meta-ed spells then, maybe that does make it even...)

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I love sorcerers and I'm not exactly happy about all this stuff that lets casters who prepare spells benefit greatly but don't forget that sorcerers can make up for having fewer known spells by purchasing scrolls, wands and staffs with spells they don't have. Instead of a greater metamagic rod of maximize spell I could purchase a very nice staff or a ton of scrolls.

 

[Gez]

He maximizes and empowers it, and takes a full round action to cast it. He still has his eighth level slots. Then he does it again. AND AGAIN. And then he casts a Horrid Wilting...because he still has four or five of 'em left, if he wants.

That's eight 8th-level spell slots you gave him. So he needs to be level 16 with a Charisma score of 58, or level 17 with a Charisma of only 50, or level 18 with a meek Charisma of merely 42, or level 19 or 20 with a puny, laughable Charisma of 34, in order to pull of that stunt.

The end of the matter is that with these class abilities, wizards are allowed to use a 3rd level spell slot where the sorcerer must use his 8th level slot. Do I need to precise that it's easier to have five third-level bonus slots than an equal number of bonus eigth-level slots?

Beside, a specialist wizard will still have much more spells available than a sorcerer, and be only one spell-per-day behind (or not at all: a 8th-level specialist wizard can cast 3 4th-level spells per day, plus bonus, out of a choice of at least four spells; and a 8th-level sorcerer can cast only as much, but out of only one spell known at this level).

 

[Zappo]

That's eight 8th-level spell slots you gave him. So he needs to be level 16 with a Charisma score of 58, or level 17 with a Charisma of only 50, or level 18 with a meek Charisma of merely 42, or level 19 or 20 with a puny, laughable Charisma of 34, in order to pull of that stunt.

He can use 9th level slots to cast 8th level spells if he wants.

 

[Thanee]

Just a short explanation, how they can be read the way I meant. Don't really need to turn it into a discussion about the clarity of those rules, I just wanted to state, that it's not a given how they work or are meant to work from the context, though I initially read them the same way you did.

How do you figure that it could be read that way?

From the SRD: " Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity).

So, they are use-activated. Using them during preparation certainly is use-activated, too. And the text in parantheses could only apply to spontaneous casters for all we know.

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day.

So, it only confers the ability to use the feat three times per day, but does not mention a change in applying the feat at all!

A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses."

Which is about the strongest argument for my view, since it implies, that the limits on using metamagic feats still apply, but it is not necessary to mention preparation, since there is no change, but since the rod powers the feat (obviously since no spell levels are added), it could be assumed, that sorcerers do not need to make the necessary modifications to the spell, which results in the full-round action casting time, but this rule specifically says, that they do. Of course, sorcerer just has to be read synonymously for all spontaneous casters, everything else would be kinda silly.

It doesn't seem very reasonable to assume, that a sorcerer, who is already better at applying metamagic than a wizard would suddenly be worse with an item, which helps doing so! Especially when looking at the Quicken metamagic rods.

The individual rods say something like "wielder can cast an empowered spell thrice per day", which IMHO is the strongest hint at "spontaneous application" even for wizards. But even a spell, which is prepared with a rod (if they work that way) is cast and it would be casting an empowered spell (emphasis in that text is on empowered, not on cast, then), so this works either way, really.

The text is simply unclear, but given how much more benefit it would be for prepared casters (better metamagic application is one of the boons of spontaneous casting, which those classes pay a hefty price for already!), I can only really see the other version to work properly and in a balanced way (as balanced as it can get with those powerful rods ).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Gez]

He can use 9th level slots to cast 8th level spells if he wants.

And so can the wizard. He can use 9th level slots to prepare, and then cast, 8th level spells if he wants.

 

[WizarDru]

That's eight 8th-level spell slots you gave him. So he needs to be level 16 with a Charisma score of 58, or level 17 with a Charisma of only 50, or level 18 with a meek Charisma of merely 42, or level 19 or 20 with a puny, laughable Charisma of 34, in order to pull of that stunt.

You're right. I'm completely wrong, there.
Per the SRD: "As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot."

And not to nitpick but an empowered maximized fireball will not do 90 points of damage.
(edit, ok, it *CAN* do 90 points of damage, but the real calculation is 60 + 10d6 * 0.5 -- making 90 unlikely )

You're right...they clarified that in 3.5, and I never noticed. Again from the SRD: "An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result."

So things aren't quite as sweet for the Sorceror (and Bard, by extension) as I thought. They are, however, still quite comfy. The advantage of being able to cast spontaneously is still huge...but it does tend to marginalize the caster.
I can see how the wording can be interepeted as vague. But I wonder that if they meant for them to be only for sorcerors or preparation, why they didn't call that out specifically. In particular, I keep coming back to this line: "All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). " Yes, that could be purely for the benefit of sorcerors and bards...but I tend to doubt it...especially since we all agree that wizards benefit more from these items than they do, and would be the first people to shell out the ducats for them.

As for the scroll making capacity of wizards...it's a mixed bag. They loose XP for the privelege, and a sorceror can spend his money to match it. In practice, most wizards I know would rather spend the money than the time and XP. It's a benefit, but I don't think it's a big one, frankly. ANd there's nothing stopping the sorceror from taking those feats...he just doesn't get them as quickly or readily as the sorceror. And let's not forget the financial burden the wizard carries....he has to scribe all of his spells into his spellbook. It costs money to do that, and the wizard has an additional vulnerabilty from it. That helps balance the economics of the feat rods, too.

All in all, I can definitely see wiggle room there, but I'm not seeing metamagic spiralling. I do think that Complete Divine wasn't terribly good, though.

 

[Voadam]

And guess what? No one is doing anything to help sorcerers lessen their big limitations of few spells known, it's totally unfair!

There are these things called scrolls, wands, and staves. They can expand a sorcerer's spell options a bunch beyond his few spells known.