Why does STR affect Attack Bonus?

[monboesen]

I think of dexterity as the thing that makes some people able to juggle or dance a coin along their knuckles with little training (I've never learned to do any of those very well even with a bit of training).

Or the abililty to throw and catch a ball well (but strength is a factor in throwing too).

In combat I would think it affects your ability to keep your balance and thereby move better. Hitting someone isn't really that complicated a movement (I'm sure it can be, if you are practicing fancy fencing or martial arts=weapon finesse) and I just don't see it affecting basic attack routines that much.

And for the smaller more dexterous guy dancing around and hitting the larger and stronger guy in the crotch/other vital area. Well that aint so easy. Even with a little training it not that hard to protect your really vulnerable areas and accepts hits on less vital ones (arms, legs, shoulders).

 

[Storyteller01]

OK, comments like this are what confuse me. You are taking someone who we know is strong. He is also fast. Therefore, strength = speed. Then you say DEX equals reflexes, hand-eye coordination, and manual movements, and suggest that DEX would affect lighter weapons. Do you consider boxing gloves to be a non-finessable weapon?

People, Tyson was not a clutz! And Muhammed Ali was not weak!

[off handed quote] From Bato in 'Ghost in the Shell; SAC' : "You can't beat me by relying on the prosthetic output!!" [off handed quote over]

Also remember that fighting intails recovey from striking as well as the act of striking itself. This is where your relaxation and Dex really come into play!

And cheers to L. Pendragon's statements!

 

[Lord Pendragon]

And cheers to L. Pendragon's statements!

And yours and many others! This has been a great thread to read.

 

[Storyteller01]

There is simply more matter to absorb the blow (or cut through, though it would likely mean less for sharp/pointy weapons).

I've heard a rumor that some roman gladiators were deliberately fed rye products and barley soups for just this reason. Supposedly, they were consistanly 40 lbs overweight, but the added weight forced opponents to have to cut through more 'stuff'. IT also padded pressure points (iT'S notoriously hard to find pain compliance points on overrweight people).

Has anyone heard of this before?

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I think I'll abuse the baseball analogy some more. In baseball, nothing matters more than bat speed. Nothing. The stronger you are, the faster you can swing a bat. You need bat speed to produce force, and thus homeruns (damage), but you also need it to catch up to a 98 mph fast ball, (to hit).

And I don't buy the dex for touch attacks route either. The faster you can "reach out and touch someone" the harder it is for them to dodge. Thus strength is the right attribute again.

 

[Storyteller01]

I think I'll abuse the baseball analogy some more. In baseball, nothing matters more than bat speed. Nothing. The stronger you are, the faster you can swing a bat. You need bat speed to produce force, and thus homeruns (damage), but you also need it to catch up to a 98 mph fast ball, (to hit).

And I don't buy the dex for touch attacks route either. The faster you can "reach out and touch someone" the harder it is for them to dodge. Thus strength is the right attribute again.

So once you've expended your strength on the strike, how do you move the bat (weapon) into a defensive position? How do you quickly prepare for another strike? Spendiing too much time on either leaves you open (especially against multiple attackers), and Str doesn't (YMMV) speed thins along during this transition.

Str provides power and a fast strike, but it doesn't provide speed overall. Too difficult to change direction (which is why attackers are vulnerable when they commit to a strike... )

Still bashing the 'strength is speed' argument. Apologies for any misinterpretation.

 

[Bryan898]

OK, comments like this are what confuse me. You are taking someone who we know is strong. He is also fast. Therefore, strength = speed. Then you say DEX equals reflexes, hand-eye coordination, and manual movements, and suggest that DEX would affect lighter weapons. Do you consider boxing gloves to be a non-finessable weapon?

I'm saying that Dex would represent your ability to quickly slip a punch, or parry a strike with your hand.

Weapon finesse would seem to work well with weapons that are easily manipulated by hand movements. For example, a quick flick of the wrist can create a thrust with a rapier to devastating effect. I could not see the same happening with a longsword.

No, I would not consider boxing gloves to be weapon finessable because of how they are used. Punching is basically a full body movement if you want proper force, and a full body movement wouldn't be a "lighter weapon" IMO.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

So once you've expended your strength on the strike, how do you move the bat (weapon) into a defensive position? How do you quickly prepare for another strike? Spendiing too much time on either leaves you open (especially against multiple attackers), and Str doesn't (YMMV) speed thins along during this transition.

Str provides power and a fast strike, but it doesn't provide speed overall. Too difficult to change direction (which is why attackers are vulnerable when they commit to a strike... )

Still bashing the 'strength is speed' argument. Apologies for any misinterpretation.

Easy. The stronger you are, the quicker your recovery time. A 90 pound weakling can't get the bat (weapon) back around in time for another swing (or to block/parry/etc) nearly as fast as a strong guy.

 

[Storyteller01]

Easy. The stronger you are, the quicker your recovery time. A 90 pound weakling can't get the bat (weapon) back around in time for another swing (or to block/parry/etc) nearly as fast as a strong guy.

Not true!! In aikido, the women in training were, in essence, the 90 lb weakling. Once they learned the tricks of kipping and weight manipulation, they were consistantly faster in their recovery. They didn't strike harder, but that is where accuracy comes in to play (have the bumps and bruises to prove it ).

In order to improve recovery, we (the men) had to relax. IME (YMMV) women tend to catch on to speed and technique faster than men, for no other reason than the fact that they don't have the strength to man handle the weapon otr their opponents. This isn't the case for all martial arts I'm sure, but the arts I've studied are based more on technique, timing, and control rather than applied strength.

Remember, weapons don't have to be over your head or behind the back to strike with power.


You can observe this for yourself: get a bat (or any weighted stick). Hold it in the standard grip. Now try the following:

Method one: *Physically pull the weapon behind you with your right hand (or the top hand if your a south paw), or swing it back and forth as the players do in a game.

Method 2: *Now, with the bat in front of you (as if you had just hit someone), push with your left hand (or the bottom hand), allowing the bat to rotate backwards in your right (top) hand. Keep you right hand fixed in one point in space until after the bat passes your shoulder.

[Hint: think of the bat as a lever, with the top hand used as the focus or pivot, rather than a mass to be lifted or manhandled]

Which method is faster? Which method requires more strength? Betcha the fastest method isn't one requiring the most effort!

 

[Storyteller01]

No, I would not consider boxing gloves to be weapon finessable because of how they are used. Punching is basically a full body movement if you want proper force, and a full body movement wouldn't be a "lighter weapon" IMO.

Any strike is a full body movement, some are just more subtle than others.

DOn't mind me folks! Weapons and single combat are things I just love to talk about!