D&D 5E Why Don't We Simplify 5e?

[Undrave]

Yep. After 40ish years of gaming, I didn’t realize how complicated (or maybe in-depth is better) 5th edition was; not until I thought about introducing my son and his friend to playing. Both have ADHD to different levels, and trying to figure out how to introduce the game and to what level was eye opening. There are a lot of helpful blogs, hacks, and articles on the web on how to introduce the game (to kids, to beginners, etc.), and they are by and large awesome. But it still remains that D&D 5th is not a light and easy game.

Heck, even the old group of players I have played with since 1st ed don't have all the rules fully under their belts.

I am thinking of stepping out of my comfort zone and diving into some more narrative games.

I recently bought Ryuutama on DriveThruRPG and I'm considering running it. There's seven classes that can all fit on one page each, and each is basically three different skills you get at level 1. Then you can pick to be a Combat Type, Technical Type, or Magic Type (and even magic spells are very few and fairly simple). There's only 3 different stat array possible and there's only 4 different ability scores. Monsters are very simple too.

Another simpler game I have run to some degree of success is Cartoon Action Hour which has a very free form system where you basically make up your own traits (with a few rules on how they can be used) with a score within a specified range. The characters only change at the end of a 'season' of 'episodes'.

I think both could help you out.

To elaborate on my previous post, the core engine is pretty simple. But to get to the engine you have to go through character generation which is what made me go Blah! when thinking about walking a new player through it.

Select a Race: get various abilities, skills, and stuff
Select a sub-race, get more stuff
Select a Class: get various stuff some with unique sub-systems
Select a Background: get stuff
Select a Sub-Class at some level: get more stuff

Put that all together, then remember to explain Inspiration, Hit Die healing, and leveling up, it adds up.

Even if you go Basic and have only 4 races with sub-race chosen and 4 classes with only one sub-class, that is a lot of info for a new player to absorb.

I actually considered creating simplified classes that can basically fit on a single page or so, with each having baked-in choices. You just pick what you want to be and there you go. For exemple, you could have a 'pyromancer' class and your spell lists would just be "At level 1 you get two out of Absorb Element, Burning Hand and Faerie Fire and Hellish Rebuke" and you get the other two at level 2 or something. . Basically, a pre-gen with a small selection of choices (at best).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Back in the D&D Next days, my impression of the new edition was that the game would be streamlined and/or have its bumps ironed out. WotC would produce something more accessible to the masses, and maybe even ride the popularity of some lighter-weight games at the time (looking at you, Savage Worlds). Crunch would be Pathfinder's thing, and more power to Paizo.

But here we are with regular rules discussions from WotC, and regular rules discussions here (now in the helpful format of How To articles). A "basic rules" document. An advanced 5e on the way from ENpublishing, and a full-on battle royale thread about the plethora of DMG options. Several threads are about adding more rules to make an aspect run better or more realistically.

And here I thought 5e was about the rulings that the DM would make, not the rules. Players make their characters from the book, and the DM does the rest, right? Why don't we see more discussions here about simplifying D&D?

5e is roughly as simplified as it can be while still doing both of;

• Feeling like DnD
• Doing all the specific "jobs" that people want the dnd system to do.

 

[aco175]

Isn't @Morrus putting a set of advanced D&D books to make things more complicated? I can see where some want more rules and crunch to make things complicated, but I guess that there are some that want simpler rules. I agree with some of the earlier suggestions that make things more streamlined, but it may need to be in a published book to keep people from complaining about them.

 

[Arilyn]

I'm quite for the opposite.

Character creation is a great way to introduce basics of D&D.
I would only hand out pre-gen if new player "crashed" the session unexpected or really didn't had the time to make own character. Or of someone dies mid session and you don't want them to leave or be utterly bored for the rest of the session.

Handing pre-gen instead of going through character creation with new player, more or less says that you think that new player is too dumb to comprehend several pages of a book. I would rather spend 2hrs with new player than handing them my own idea what they should play.

I might suggest a class with simple mechanics, like champion fighter or scout rogue, but that is about it.

Making a character is also a great way to internalize rules. And because the player is making choices during character creation, they are more likely to remember the bibs and bobs. If making a spell caster, for example, the player will be reading or listening to the GM about how spells work, and it will be important, so more likely remembered.

 

[Ancalagon]

5e is roughly as simplified as it can be while still doing both of;

• Feeling like DnD
• Doing all the specific "jobs" that people want the dnd system to do.

I disagree. B/x could be modernize a bit and be far simpler than 5e. It's arguably simpler already.

The GLOG is sort of that, but that is not "official" D&D so...

 

[Benjamin Olson]

So generally speaking I'm someone wanting more complexity in my 5e D&D, but I am presently in the midst of running games at a Summer arts camp for a bunch of 11-13 year olds and so I certainly have a different perspective at the moment. Having to share around 2 copies of the PHB between numerous kids I'll say that part of the reason that WotC will never produce all that simple of a game is that some needless complexity heavily incentivizes having your own copy of the PHB. For what play (in this context) ends up actually looking like (some ability checks while kids try out a game where they can try anything, and some very simple combats) I was just thinking today about how I could probably simplify the system down to just picking some skill bonuses and needing to hit enemies a certain number of times and it would play almost exactly the same for our needs.

That said, the "needless complexities" of character creation are the parts that many of these kids find most evocative and inspiring in deciding who their character is, and creating and playing characters in a shared creative storytelling experience (and inspiring creativity beyond that) is the point of the exercise.

 

[Malmuria]

One thing I notice looking at the OSE books, is that you don't really "get" anything when you level up. More hit points and spells, and your saves and thief skills get better, but there is much less of of 1/day abilities that scale or that are added at later levels. You pretty much start out with you archetype and just lean into that further the higher in level you get. A lot of the complexity in 5e comes from the amount of new abilities and powers you get when you level up, and the desire for there to be no "dead" levels. In B/X, that complexity comes from magic items, if at all.

 

[overgeeked]

needing to hit enemies a certain number of times and it would play almost exactly the same for our needs.

Don't say that bit too loudly. People might start to realize that is exactly how the game's been balanced for the last two editions. It's also how it used to work in the Chainmail days. Hit points were literally how many times you could get hit before dying.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

A lot of the complexity in 5e comes from the amount of new abilities and powers you get when you level up, and the desire for there to be no "dead" levels. In B/X, that complexity comes from magic items, if at all.

Exactly this.

I think there's a place for a 5e version where there still choices to make for character creation, but those choices get you passive ability or better use of a low-level ability.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I disagree. B/x could be modernize a bit and be far simpler than 5e. It's arguably simpler already.

The GLOG is sort of that, but that is not "official" D&D so...

And I would disagree with the unspoken premise that a modernized B/x would feel like DnD to younger players, or do all the things players want dnd to do.