D&D (2024) Why No Monster Creation Rules in D&D 2024?

[Maxperson]

Why?

Most new DM's aren't going to be creating monsters. They certainly aren't going to be wading through ten pages and twenty steps to do so. Not when you've got a spiffy new Monster Manual right there to use. So, in what way are monster creation rules "invaluable" for new DM's?

And, if these rules are "invaluable" why is this the first time anyone's actually talked about them? Why haven't we been hearing endlessly about the need for these invaluable rules?

This isn't the first time. I've seen it brought up in several threads here. I also don't agree that no new DMs are going to create monsters. People are creative and players read monster books. I think many new DMs will want to create new monsters.

Funnily enough, we managed just fine through B/E, 1e, and 2e without monster creation rules.

Yep. I remember being TPK'd many times by created monsters from those editions. If only there had been rules for the DMs to follow in order to better balance their creations, that wouldn't have happened nearly so often. I lost many characters that I really liked to those sorts of screwups.

The 3e rules were incredibly dense and complex and even the professionals couldn't use them correctly. There were endless threads discussing how bespoke monsters in both Dungeon and various modules were created wrong. That was one of the primary motivations for simplifying the rules in 4e. But, 4e made the rules too transparent, and people don't want that. So, we got the 5e rules, very few of which actually match up with actual monsters, meaning that the rules in the DMG were baroque, overcomplicated, and most of the time, gave faulty results.

Even if they weren't used perfectly, they still allowed you to better ballpark the monsters to your PCs than random trial and error like we had before 3e. 30 pages of planes would have been plenty.

 

[Hussar]

I've seen it brought up in several threads here

Really? Several? I've been here too. Like I said before, you put up a link to a thread asking for better monster creation rules, and I'll put up three asking for more lore and we'll see who runs out first.

The problem with the 3e rules was that they were just far, far too complicated. It took a LONG time to make a higher CR monster in 3e. Caster? It could easily take an hour or more to create a single monster. That was the problem. So, we got streamlined, simple rules for monster creation in 4e that worked really, really well.

But, because they were too transparent and the math was too regular, things were deemed to be too predictable. So, we get 5e which is all wibbly wobbly as far as monster design goes. Where you have monsters with similar CR's and WILDLY varying complexity. Meaning that the monster creation rules were largely opaque and very hard to use.

Even things like Sly Flourish's Lazy DM's monster creation rules are freaking massive. Forge of Foes is a HUNDRED AND TWENTY EIGHT PAGES long.

 

[Minigiant]

Really? Several? I've been here too. Like I said before, you put up a link to a thread asking for better monster creation rules, and I'll put up three asking for more lore and we'll see who runs out first.

The problem with the 3e rules was that they were just far, far too complicated. It took a LONG time to make a higher CR monster in 3e. Caster? It could easily take an hour or more to create a single monster. That was the problem. So, we got streamlined, simple rules for monster creation in 4e that worked really, really well

Also 3e's monster design didn't work because weapons were MASSDIVELY overvalued and spells HUGELY undervalued.

So the 3e monster creation rules was kinda trash.

You'd need different rules for warriors, priests, mages, and rogues.

This is why 4e identified the roles and designed a system to put all classes in the same power structure.

5e did the worst of 4e and 3e. It kept 4e's roles, kept 3e's asymmetrical design, built a different system for each type of monster, then pretended it didn't.

So for 5e, a good transparent monster creation system needs.

1. A monster creation system for Artillery and Lurker monsters
2. A monster creation system for Brute and Bruiser monsters
3. A monster creation system for Offensive Caster monsters
4. A monster creation system for Control and Support Caster monsters
5. A monster creation system for Support and Healer nonCaster monsters
6. A monster creation system for Complex Soldier monsters
7. A monster creation system for Trick and Gimmick monsters

to teach newbie, vet, and old DMs

 

[billd91]

They did, but the fact that they were not present in the DMG and the MM--along their comments--seems to point out to either they're still fleshing them out for player use, or likely something to include for an updated XGE/TCE book

Keep in mind, the focus of the 2024 revision was streamlining ease of use for new players/DMs, and this was one of their marketing points

I certainly hope so. The lack of monster building/modifying guidelines is a definite annoyance. I use the ones for 2014 quite a bit - mostly for adjusting the CR of monsters.

 

[Reynard]

. I use the ones for 2014 quite a bit -

I have it on good authority that just isn't possible.

 

[billd91]

I have it on good authority that just isn't possible.

Probably the same people saying the earth is flat.

 

[jasper]

They did, but the fact that they were not present in the DMG and the MM--along their comments--seems to point out to either they're still fleshing them out for player use, or likely something to include for an updated XGE/TCE book

Keep in mind, the focus of the 2024 revision was streamlining ease of use for new players/DMs, and this was one of their marketing points

And one of their marketing points was monster creation rules. So they lied again.
I totally disagree with Hussar. New DMS will be creating monsters. I have been looking for good creation rules since 1e.

 

[Remathilis]

And one of their marketing points was monster creation rules. So they lied again.
I totally disagree with Hussar. New DMS will be creating monsters. I have been looking for good creation rules since 1e.

And the fact you haven't found them yet speaks to the nature of monster creation rules.

 

[Minigiant]

And one of their marketing points was monster creation rules. So they lied again.
I totally disagree with Hussar. New DMS will be creating monsters. I have been looking for good creation rules since 1e.

WOTC never marketed monster creation rules.
They make money selling you their monsters.

The zeitgeist of fans marketed monster creation rules because they assumed it would be included.

After a few independent podcast and interviews of the 5e designers, I 90% knew detailed monster rules weren't coming by the way they spoke about monsters.

 

[Hussar]

And one of their marketing points was monster creation rules. So they lied again.
I totally disagree with Hussar. New DMS will be creating monsters. I have been looking for good creation rules since 1e.

Really? One of their marketing points was monster creation rules? I missed that.

But, again, you can disagree with me all you like. I would point to the fact that there is ZERO evidence that new DM's create monsters. None. There's been like zero push for any sort of monster creation rules, or monster creation apps or anything like that. I mean, Forge of Foes, one of the books that's been put forward in this thread for evidence that there is this huge groundswell of demand for monster creation rules had less than 8000 backers.

Let's be honest here. WotC has zero interest in something that small.