log in or register to remove this ad

 

5E Worst Classes Level 1.

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
The only time you are gated out of making an ability check in 5e is when the task is impossible to fail or impossible to succeed.
DMG 237

Not nearly impossible. Straight up impossible.
0.0000001% chances fall in that impossible category as well. There’s no other way for it.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Listen, telling me I'm doing it wrong when I'm the one showing you the rules is not going to convince me.

Luckily, you can play your way and gatekeep your players from making checks based on their ability scores, and I'll let mine play with the freedom to try to do things when they want to.
you are reading the rules very wrong. See next post for details
 
Last edited:

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Pg. 174-175 of the PHB.

Page 174:
View attachment 123260

and page 175:
View attachment 123261

There you go. :)

Of course do it the way you want, but that is not according to the RAW. I don't have any issue with it, but you asked for the rules.
the veryfirst sentence you highlighted above if read independently with absolutely no context leads to your conclusion. In context it’s talking about about the specific instance of a check already being asked for. Which is a far cry different from establishing whether to ask for a check in the first place.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Cute argument, but what has it to do with the worst level 1 classes?

Not much.

As a gentle suggestion: Someone is wrong on the internet, you made your case, either let it rest or argue about it in a thread it is on topic for?

---

An interesting distinction between monks and rogues is that the rogue;s 13.5 damage is mire reliable. While sneak attack sometimes fails to be triggered (ready an action!), in melee you get 2 attempts to deal 1d6 of it.

At 60% accuracy, the rogue gets .6*(10)+.1*3.5 + .84*3.5+.07*3.5=9.535 DPR.

The monk gets .6*(13)+.05*4.5+.05*3.5=8.2 DPR.


The 0.5 point gap, a mere 4% based on "everything hits" becomes a 1.3 point gap, or 16%, after accounting for misses.

And expertise is better utility than "I can fight naked" usually.
Also of note is that the rogue only needs about a 55% rate of sneak attack opportunities before he starts outdamaging the monk. At 90% rate of sneak attack opportunities the rogue does 9.2 DPR. That's still significantly better.
 


The level 1 Ranger just gets ribbons. Even its favored terrain thing is effectively ribbon because it turns challenges into a narrative description. "So you go into the marsh and have no problem finding your way, or finding food, because of the Ranger, and you come out four days later having done nothing exciting. Time to go into the dungeon now!"
Isn't that the one of the best possible abilities: it might not add to combat prowess, but it sames real-world time, which allows you to accomplish more during the session. Excellent ability from where I'm standing.
 

Eltab

Hero
This works great!

... In 4e edition.

Unless you have a V-Human with Sentinel, the tank can't 'punish' the enemy for hitting you, AT ALL, and you can't give your friend Advantage by just standing there.
You aren't thinking like a Warlord. 😉
If you down the Tank's foe, move around/behind the next foe so he is Flanked when the Tank moves up. If you hit the Tank's foe and he is still up (or if you miss), finish your move behind that foe for Flanking.
 

Undrave

Hero
Not a bad list. I rate Cleric low myself, but as we all know a lot is a matter of the the build and preferences on play style and goal of the build.
I rate it high because you got survivability in the form of access to Chainmail and shields, and utility in the form of rituals and the Guidance cantrip. Plus they get their domain at level 1 so it's a bit more... exciting. And you can get healing with one of your two spells, or Bless or Inflict Wounds, both top notch spells.

Isn't that the one of the best possible abilities: it might not add to combat prowess, but it sames real-world time, which allows you to accomplish more during the session. Excellent ability from where I'm standing.
Yeah but you might as well not be there and hire an NPC Ranger. It's not a 'button' to push, so to speak, because it doesn't ask you to make any sort of decision. You're barely involved.

You aren't thinking like a Warlord. 😉
If you down the Tank's foe, move around/behind the next foe so he is Flanked when the Tank moves up. If you hit the Tank's foe and he is still up (or if you miss), finish your move behind that foe for Flanking.
Flanking is an optional rule in 5e.
 

Nor have I ever asserted that position - it's not a position I would assert. I don't believe most players are mechanically competent enough to make an informed decision like that (the booing may commence now). You've confused me with someone with stronger opinions on Monks generally.
You have my apologies for misrepresenting your position. Again the intention was for a humorous post, alas I rolled poorly, on my Performance check. Need to boost my CHA score at the next opportunity.

On Feb 5, 2020, in a thread entitled: [Poll] Are any of the base classes too Weak, you, Ruin Explorer did write,the following:
The cold fact is that in most editions where they've appeared, Monks have been mechanically pretty awful, so what you're proving is that the people you've played with have enjoyed the hell of terribly-designed classes. Which I'm sure is true, I too have seen pretty awful character classes provide fun, but it utterly invalidates any claim that they are mechanically fine on that basis.

Re smiling faces, my own experience is that upbeat and generally positive players tend to be far more willing to select mechanically dubious classes, and far less upset when they can't perform mechanically.


I inferred too much from past words, or just plain misunderstood. Mea Culpa.
 

Its a bit iffy in the Social pillar. Having a caster spam a spell on the party face in front of an NPC might have the exact opposite effects to helping the check!
It depends on how elaborate you deem the verbal component for Guidance is.
I have been engaged in many a conversation where a participant makes a religious exclamation like “God Willing” and so forth........this could very well be the verbal component of the Guidance spell.

Artificers and Druids having only 2 Cantrips at 1st level is somewhat lackluster...especially for the Druid.

Luckily 200 XP later the Druid and Artificer gets much better.
I’m curious, has anyone not advanced to 2nd level by the end of the first adventure in 5e?
 

Gammadoodler

Explorer
Specifically (and only) at first level, how is it that bards haven't been mentioned yet? Bad AC, few spell slots, few cantrips (and none particularly damaging), inspiration still a long rest resource, no expertise on the skills they have.
 

Specifically (and only) at first level, how is it that bards haven't been mentioned yet? Bad AC, few spell slots, few cantrips (and none particularly damaging), inspiration still a long rest resource, no expertise on the skills they have.
You have 4 spells, same as a wizard has prepped. Your AC is better than a wizard. Inspiration is long rest, but still strong. One of your cantrips, mockery, is really good at low levels (when baddies more rarely multiattack).

Your casting stat is social.

There is a plethora of good 1st level spells on your list - sleep, heroism, faerie fire, healing word, hideous laughter, dissonant whispers as a quick selection.
 

Mort

Adventurer
Supporter
Specifically (and only) at first level, how is it that bards haven't been mentioned yet? Bad AC, few spell slots, few cantrips (and none particularly damaging), inspiration still a long rest resource, no expertise on the skills they have.
For me, it's because, even at first level, Bards are adequate at support. Bardic inspiration, particularly, is amazing at 1st level - when your proficiency modifier +2 getting and avg of +3 to a roll is pretty big. Sure it's a long rest resource, but the Bard will likely be able to do it around 3 times per long rest - as many as the lucky feat.

And yes the Bard gets relatively few spells, but they're a good selection. Sleep is practically instakill at 1st level, Faerie fire is also quite good support. As for cantrips, viscous mockery may not be damaging - but it's excellent support.

Also, at first level the bard is almost certainly going to be the best at social interaction.

IMO they have too much going for them to be near the bottom here.
 

Eltab

Hero
I've played a Bard with Vicious Mockery who was instrumental (no pun) during a fighting retreat down a narrow hallway. He VM'ed the enemy in front of the Tank. The Tank was not hit as he took out a half-dozen swarm-you foes, one at a time.

I cannot say L1 Bard is bad as a class, when you look past DPR to the situations you might get into. They have several effective (and fun) things to do.
 

Undrave

Hero
I've played a Bard with Vicious Mockery who was instrumental (no pun) during a fighting retreat down a narrow hallway. He VM'ed the enemy in front of the Tank. The Tank was not hit as he took out a half-dozen swarm-you foes, one at a time.

I cannot say L1 Bard is bad as a class, when you look past DPR to the situations you might get into. They have several effective (and fun) things to do.
Exactly! At level 1, despite low DPR, you can still have an IMPACT and you still have decision points and levers to pull on. You have to consider when to best use your Inspiration and your Spell Slots.
 

You aren't thinking like a Warlord. 😉
If you down the Tank's foe, move around/behind the next foe so he is Flanked when the Tank moves up. If you hit the Tank's foe and he is still up (or if you miss), finish your move behind that foe for Flanking.
Flanking is an option in the DMG that I don't think is used by many people. The game isn't really set up for it to work.
 

Gammadoodler

Explorer
For me, it's because, even at first level, Bards are adequate at support. Bardic inspiration, particularly, is amazing at 1st level - when your proficiency modifier +2 getting and avg of +3 to a roll is pretty big. Sure it's a long rest resource, but the Bard will likely be able to do it around 3 times per long rest - as many as the lucky feat.

And yes the Bard gets relatively few spells, but they're a good selection. Sleep is practically instakill at 1st level, Faerie fire is also quite good support. As for cantrips, viscous mockery may not be damaging - but it's excellent support.

Also, at first level the bard is almost certainly going to be the best at social interaction.

IMO they have too much going for them to be near the bottom here.
Starting with the last part. At this level a bard is likely exactly as good at social interaction as any other charisma caster and worse than any rogue who's chosen it as an expertised skill.

Their spell list is fine, but it's generally comparable with the other spellcasters, except that bards get to use those spells less and they can only choose 4 of them.

Bardic inspiration is fine. Not sure it's adequate compensation for the missing cantrips, spell slots, armor proficiencies, etc. that the other classes get.
Honestly think bards just get a pass because they get so much better so quickly.
 
Last edited:

I inferred too much from past words, or just plain misunderstood. Mea Culpa.
A little of both - I said most rather than all for a reason, and I don't think people select Monks because they want or expect a weak class or whatever, but rather that very positive/upbeat players tend to spend less time looking at whether a class is actually good, and are less upset/put-out when it turns out that it isn't.
 


Starting with the last part. At this level a bard is likely exactly as good at social interaction as any other charisma caster and worse than any rogue who's chosen it as an expertised skill.
Sure, +5 will be under a rogue's +6. But not far.
Their spell list is fine, but it's generally comparable with the other spellcasters, except that bards get to use those spells less and they can only choose 4 of them.
"Only?"
Wizards can prep 4 spells at level 1. Bards are tied for the most spells to pick from when casting a spell at level 1.

They get 1 less 1st level spell than a wizard after arcane recovery, and are otherwise tied with every other non-pact spellcaster for slots. What does "use them less" mean?

[Quite]Bardic inspiration is fine. Not sure it's adequate compensation for the missing cantrips, spell slots, armor proficiencies, etc. that the other classes get.[/quote]
The only heavier armored full caster is the cleric.

The only spellcaster with more slots per day is the warlock (with 2+ short rests) and the wizard.

I mean, if you add up every other spellcaster into a megaclass they make the bard look bad.

And mockery is a top tier cantrip at level 1. I'd argue the best combat cantrip actually.
 

Mythological Figures & Maleficent Monsters

Advertisement2

Advertisement4

Top