D&D 5E Reworking Spell Lists (Reducing "Sameyness")

[TwoSix]

@Minigiant :

Here is another radical approach. It requires a great "rethinking" of the classes and their roles, etc.

Divide up each school to each caster/half-caster as follows...

Example:
Bards: Enchantment (Charm) - 40 spells
Cleric: Conjuration (Create) - 78 spells
Druid: Transmutation (Change) - 93 spells
Paladin: Abjuration (Protect) - 52 spells
Ranger: Divination (Find) - 32 spells
Sorcerer: Illusion (Deceive) - 31 spells
Warlock: Necromancy (Delve) - 36 spells
Wizard: Evocation (Manifest) - 100 spells

So, the "old" main casters have long spell lists (78, 93, and 100) and the others much shorter, but they all have other features (inspiration, warriors, metamagic, invocations) to make up for it.

Does it make some drastic changes? You BET! Cure Wounds, for instance, would become a WIZARD spell!

But, it automatically removes sameyness, makes each caster type very unique, etc.

Out of curiosity, because it's a really compelling method, are you making each class a full caster, or are some high-level spells simply unavailable?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Out of curiosity, because it's a really compelling method, are you making each class a full caster, or are some high-level spells simply unavailable?

If I tried this, I would probably make each class a full caster and not allow any caster MC combinations (so no Paladin/Sorcerer, etc.).

 

[TwoSix]

If I tried this, I would probably make each class a full caster and not allow any caster MC combinations (so no Paladin/Sorcerer, etc.).

Hmm. My gut feeling is that would be OK mechanically, but I can see wanting to restrict it thematically. You're giving each class a much stronger narrative presence in the setting.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Hmm. My gut feeling is that would be OK mechanically, but I can see wanting to restrict it thematically. You're giving each class a much stronger narrative presence in the setting.

That would be a feature of the idea and part of my intent. With having many subclasses still "crossing-over" into others, I am hoping it wouldn't be too restrictive.

I have also been thinking about a "free magic" system (lists be damned!) where any caster can use any spell (potentially) to accomplish their goal. It would be much more of a "I want to do this" instead of a "I cast this".

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I have also been thinking about a "free magic" system (lists be damned!) where any caster can use any spell (potentially) to accomplish their goal. It would be much more of a "I want to do this" instead of a "I cast this".

See, this is a question I had in the back of my mind: would it break anything to allow all caster to access all spells from the book(s)? Does the casting class themselves are thematically and mechanically different enough that not differentiating them with spell lists would confuse things up? (lets say we changed cleric, paladin and druid to known spells for paladin and known/prepared for cleric and druid to prevent them having to chose from the whole list every day).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

To my mind, the argument I drew from the OP in the original thread was about making magic distinct, and not having it be a catch-all system that would hold any supernatural or preternatural ability a class might use.

That's why I tried to emphasize the spell list as having their own presence within the campaign narrative, and moved away from naming them after the classes that typically used them. If the spell list/power sources are their own unique entity, then having a class-specific power within them just doesn't make sense, anymore than having a custom weapon list that only the monk or rogue could use.

Honestly, if I was looking to implement this concept in my own games, I wouldn't have any half-casters, and I would just give paladins and rangers their own special abilities.

As to why an Arcane half-caster, probably the single best reason is simple symmetry. Having full casters for every power source, and half-casters for every power source save one draws the eye, much like the lack of a "Martial Controller" was a constant proud nail in 4E discussion of new classes.

So, here’s my thing. I think the Artificer shoulda been a full caster, but I’m probably down with a half-caster Bard. Sorcerer and warlock, though...just feels completely wrong.
But partly that’s because they would feel like they are half-casters solely to have Arcane halfcasters.

OTOH, a Swordmage class would feel right as a half-caster. I’d even give them a spellbook, and add some new weapon based Arcane spells to the game for them. Stuff like throw your weapon and it explodes and damages in a zone then reforms in your hand, as well as tactical teleportation stuff, makes sure that Absorb Elements and Armor of Agythis are Arcane spells so they can use them.

Also, give them rituals.

This is what I am actually in preference of now, but really changes the dynamics for the established classes. It would be fun to try I think.

Otherwise, yes it was mostly about symmetry and finding a home for each class.

That might be really fun, though there is a danger that it would make the game more satisfying to read, but less fun to play. Would require testing to know tbh. Which ain’t a bad thing.

 

[TwoSix]

See, this is a question I had in the back of my mind: would it break anything to allow all caster to access all spells from the book(s)? Does the casting class themselves are thematically and mechanically different enough that not differentiating them with spell lists would confuse things up? (lets say we changed cleric, paladin and druid to known spells for paladin and known/prepared for cleric and druid to prevent them having to chose from the whole list every day).

I don't think it would break anything (although I'm of the mind that 5e is actually pretty hard to "break".) It might cause some spell homogenization (everyone picks the strongest spells), but it might also allow some more variety within the class (if the other casters can handle casting the spell only my class used to get, now I can get something else).

I'd say wizards would probably need a small boost (as they had the largest spell list and receive the least benefit, relative to other casters, by the change). Non-casters would need a fairly substantial boost to still be appealing choices.

 

[DND_Reborn]

See, this is a question I had in the back of my mind: would it break anything to allow all caster to access all spells from the book(s)? Does the casting class themselves are thematically and mechanically different enough that not differentiating them with spell lists would confuse things up? (lets say we changed cleric, paladin and druid to known spells for paladin and known/prepared for cleric and druid to prevent them having to chose from the whole list every day).

LOL, what can I say? "Great minds" and all that?

This was more or less my idea. "Free magic"... based on the situation.

Suppose a spellcaster needs to reach the top of a cliff. Examples of how to achieve the goal:

I use magic to make myself cling to the cliff wall like a spider and climb up to the top (Spider Climb).
I use magic to make myself lighter and float to the top (Levitate).
I use magic to make myself fly to the top (Fly).
I use magic to tear open a doorway to the top (Dimension Door).
I use magic to change into a bird and fly to the top (Polymorph).
I use magic to change into a cloud and float to the top (Wind Walk).
I use magic to fold space and appear at the top (Teleport).

I want a system where the manner used to accomplish the goal is described and the DM sets a spellcasting DC depending on the task and how easy magic makes it (higher level spells make simpler tasks easier, etc.).

I was thinking along the lines of DC = 8 + twice the spell level or something. Honestly, I have no clue. I have to work numbers and try some samples and calculate odds of success to tweak it to get it in the right ballpark.

Now, the price of failure would be you need to rest. If you fail by 5 or more, you need a long rest. Again, just spit-balling the idea. All of this is subject to drastic change and reversals and removals and such.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Dang it....I may have to write up a Swordmage soon.

might as well finish these classes and put them up on the DMsGuild, though. I think the Marshal, Swordmage, Assassin, variant features for the fighter and Cleric, variant beast options for the Druid, and the Shadow related rogue subclasses I’ve cooked up, with some magic items and spells to support it all, would make a pretty interesting product...

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Dang it....I may have to write up a Swordmage soon.

might as well finish these classes and put them up on the DMsGuild, though. I think the Marshal, Swordmage, Assassin, variant features for the fighter and Cleric, variant beast options for the Druid, and the Shadow related rogue subclasses I’ve cooked up, with some magic items and spells to support it all, would make a pretty interesting product...

Dont forget your ''song'' spells for the bard