D&D 5E Idea a Redemption Mod for Infernal Warmachines in BG: DiA

[Lyxen]

Your DM should instantly rule your character is Chaotic Evil, burning defencless souls into agonize destruction is worse then murder, rape, torture of flesh, thief, etc, and there simple us no relationization that makes something so heinous acceptable or even morally neutral. Even evil souls don't deserve that and many damned souls weren't evil.

Sorry, but no. All the souls sent to Hell are evil. After that, maybe some non-evil souls got captured in Soul Coins, but it's more likely people who had made a deal with a devil and tried to renege on it. And is it better to destroy them, or to leave them around to suffer imprisonment and torture for all eternity, or worse to become devils to perpetuate the cycle ? It's certainly not a good act, and it's very probably evil, but using evil to destroy evil is fair. Also as a reminder: "few people are perfectly and consistently faithful to the precepts of their alignment." So an immediate shift to evil would be a bit strong for me.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Like I said, I am not the one burning them

Yeah, regardless of where one falls on the "is this act evil" spectrum, everyone who actively benefits from the action, and makes no effort to stop it, is responsible for the action.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

Sorry, but no. All the souls sent to Hell are evil. After that, maybe some non-evil souls got captured in Soul Coins, but it's more likely people who had made a deal with a devil and tried to renege on it. And is it better to destroy them, or to leave them around to suffer imprisonment and torture for all eternity, or worse to become devils to perpetuate the cycle ? It's certainly not a good act, and it's very probably evil, but using evil to destroy evil is fair. Also as a reminder: "few people are perfectly and consistently faithful to the precepts of their alignment." So an immediate shift to evil would be a bit strong for me.

We know from Waterdeep Dragon Heist that parents can trade the souls of their children so no, not all souls that go to the Nine hells are evil, heck maybe most aren't the easiest targets for Devil's to tempt are evil folks it's desperate folks or those easily mislead and manipulated, aka the vulnerable. That's the poor, scared, suffering from illness, etc...

And the souls in soul coins appear to be in a neutral state until used in some fashion. Taking soul coins to a Celestial realm could create an opening to save those souls.

 

[ECMO3]

We know from Waterdeep Dragon Heist that parents can trade the souls of their children so no, not all souls that go to the Nine hells are evil, heck maybe most aren't the easiest targets for Devil's to tempt are evil folks it's desperate folks or those easily mislead and manipulated, aka the vulnerable. That's the poor, scared, suffering from illness, etc...

And the souls in soul coins appear to be in a neutral state until used in some fashion. Taking soul coins to a Celestial realm could create an opening to save those souls.

"We" do not know this. Tazzi has never been to Waterdeep and she did not know anything about soul coins or that soul coins were even a thing at all until she ended up in Avernus (willingly sacrificing her own safety to go there and try to save Elturel mind you). She has both an Asimar PC and a Celestial NPC with her in Avernus who might know about such things and neither of them have said such either.

Maybe if she ran into you in Avernus and you explained all this then her opinion would be different, but that has not happened in game.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

"We" do not know this. Tazzi has never been to Waterdeep and she did not know anything about soul coins or that soul coins were even a thing at all until she ended up in Avernus (willingly sacrificing her own safety to go there and try to save Elturel mind you). She has both an Asimar PC and a Celestial NPC with her in Avernus who might know about such things and neither of them have said such either.

Maybe if she ran into you in Avernus and you explained all this then her opinion would be different, but that has not happened in game.

You can literally talk to the soul inside the soul coin. That's one of its primary abilities. You can find out, just by asking and expending a charge, if the soul inside the coin caused themselves to be trapped in the coin, or if it was someone else who did it to them. I mean, it's explicitely an evil act to destroy any soul, even one that "deserves it", but if your characters are comfortable with destroying the souls of serial killers, murderers, rapists, and other dispicable people, this could help decide which souls should be burned.

 

[ECMO3]

You can literally talk to the soul inside the soul coin. That's one of its primary abilities. You can find out, just by asking and expending a charge, if the soul inside the coin caused themselves to be trapped in the coin, or if it was someone else who did it to them.

I don't think anyone in the party knows this. Tazzi is not one of the players carrying the coins, it is possible one of the two characters that have them know this but they have not told the rest of us.

 

[Lyxen]

We know from Waterdeep Dragon Heist that parents can trade the souls of their children so no, not all souls that go to the Nine hells are evil, heck maybe most aren't the easiest targets for Devil's to tempt are evil folks it's desperate folks or those easily mislead and manipulated, aka the vulnerable. That's the poor, scared, suffering from illness, etc...

No, I do not "know" this, I already thought that WD-DH was the worst adventure for 5e, but this drives the nail in the coffin. Moreover, it's only an adventure, and a stupid one at that, whereas MToF clearly states that mortals can only enter contract for their own souls, not others, even their own children. IMHO, the threat is not binding, the Cassalanters are just stupid enough to believe it is (although of course, their children might die).

Moreover, you mistake how devils work. They con only claim evil souls, the aim of the contract is to have you commit evil acts so that your soul is forfeit, and devils are interested in powerful souls, you do not see them offering meals in soup kitchen in exchange for souls.

There might be a few non evil souls here and there in the Soul Coins, but as others pointed out, you can use the coin itself to know this.

And the souls in soul coins appear to be in a neutral state until used in some fashion. Taking soul coins to a Celestial realm could create an opening to save those souls.

There is no need for this. There are easy ways like using all the charges for queries that will release the soul to whatever plane they are destined to: "A freed soul travels to the realm of the god it served or the outer plane most closely tied to its alignment (DM’s choice)."

Yes, it's corrupting to use a soul to power a war machine, but if it's an evil one, it might be better for it than serve devils for all eternity or become a devil anyway, and it's just one casualty compared to the scale of the Blood War. And if you free all other souls that you encounter, or redeem Zariel, well...

 

[Bolares]

The thing is... you can explicitly free the soul by consuming all the charges in the coin... or you can destroy it to fuel the furnace. (That's what RAW tells us) Your character may not know that information, but if they do... that seems like an unanbigously evil act to use the furnace. That's the problem with the design of the adventure for me. That's not slowly corrupting characters, it's straight up making them choose to be evil or have to walk a lot. That's not an interesting choice for me.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

No, I do not "know" this, I already thought that WD-DH was the worst adventure for 5e, but this drives the nail in the coffin. Moreover, it's only an adventure, and a stupid one at that, whereas MToF clearly states that mortals can only enter contract for their own souls, not others, even their own children. IMHO, the threat is not binding, the Cassalanters are just stupid enough to believe it is (although of course, their children might die).

Moreover, you mistake how devils work. They con only claim evil souls, the aim of the contract is to have you commit evil acts so that your soul is forfeit, and devils are interested in powerful souls, you do not see them offering meals in soup kitchen in exchange for souls.

There might be a few non evil souls here and there in the Soul Coins, but as others pointed out, you can use the coin itself to know this.



There is no need for this. There are easy ways like using all the charges for queries that will release the soul to whatever plane they are destined to: "A freed soul travels to the realm of the god it served or the outer plane most closely tied to its alignment (DM’s choice)."

Yes, it's corrupting to use a soul to power a war machine, but if it's an evil one, it might be better for it than serve devils for all eternity or become a devil anyway, and it's just one casualty compared to the scale of the Blood War. And if you free all other souls that you encounter, or redeem Zariel, well...

I'll take the two Waterdeep adventures over Baldur's Gate: DiA any day I'd the week. IMHO the Waterdeep adventures are the best of the edition.

 

[Bolares]

I'll take the two Waterdeep adventures over Baldur's Gate: DiA any day I'd the week. IMHO the Waterdeep adventures are the best of the edition.

I just don't think the maps in Dragonheist fit the feel of the adventure. They make total sense in mad mage, but I'd prefer more detailed maps in dragonheist. Also, the adventure lacks an actual heist