D&D General Maybe I was ALWAYs playing 4e... even in 2e

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I think this feature of the "going to -10" optional rule in Gygax's DMG is often ignored/forgotten. I don't know if AD&D 2nd ed had the same feature.
Not particularly any more optional than anything else the down to -3 range was explicitly optional but knocked to zero and being comatose for hours and disabled a week regardless of hit point restoration was not called out as so.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
It was actually optional (called Death's Door) in 2e, Gary never presented it as an option, it was just buried in the wall of text that is the 1e DMG, I never noticed it until recently.
I'm confused as to what you mean by "never presented it as an option". He literally offers it as a possibility, one might say an option, in the 1E DMG. Do you just mean it doesn't get broken out in a neat sidebar saying "Optional Rule" in a bold header? Despite not being so signposted, it's definitely an optional rule.

It was pretty commonly adopted, too. As I recall the simplified 2E implementation was based on how a lot of players/tables/DMs chose to run the more complicated 1E version.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
I'm confused as to what you mean by "never presented it as an option". He literally offers it as a possibility, one might say an option, in the 1E DMG. Do you just mean it doesn't get broken out in a neat sidebar saying "Optional Rule" in a bold header? Despite not being so signposted, it's definitely an optional rule.

It was pretty commonly adopted, too. As I recall the simplified 2E implementation was based on how a lot of players/tables/DMs chose to run the more complicated 1E version.
I mean, the only thing he says that you could optionally do is the "-3 hit points thing". Otherwise, it's just smack dab in the text along with everything else in the DMG. I can't guess at his authorial intent, since he says both that the game is your own, do with it what you will and that if you're not using all of the rules you're not playing D&D.*

It's definitely less clear than how it was spelled out in 2e.

*Which I've heard was due to his fear of other people stealing all his ideas, but when I read the book back in the 80's, it sure left me confused.
 

I didn't play 1e

I started 2e in 94/95 range. I only have the stories of my friends that did play, and all of them new death to be at 0... and when I started -10 was optional (although everyone I know used it) for 2e.
 

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
I mean, the only thing he says that you could optionally do is the "-3 hit points thing". Otherwise, it's just smack dab in the text along with everything else in the DMG. I can't guess at his authorial intent, since he says both that the game is your own, do with it what you will and that if you're not using all of the rules you're not playing D&D.*

It's definitely less clear than how it was spelled out in 2e.

*Which I've heard was due to his fear of other people stealing all his ideas, but when I read the book back in the 80's, it sure left me confused.
He literally presents it as an option, for DMs unsatisfied with death at 0. 🤷‍♂️

No disagreement at all that it's presented more clearly in 2E; that's kind of the point of 2E.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
He literally presents it as an option, for DMs unsatisfied with death at 0. 🤷‍♂️

No disagreement at all that it's presented more clearly in 2E; that's kind of the point of 2E.
Oh I see what you're saying. How strange. So if you're brought to 0 you remain alive til -10 (or optionally if reduced to -3) but if you're reduced to -4 you just die instantly? Mea culpa, that is not how I read it at first. What a strange rule...
 

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
Oh I see what you're saying. How strange. So if you're brought to 0 you remain alive til -10 (or optionally if reduced to -3) but if you're reduced to -4 you just die instantly? Mea culpa, that is not how I read it at first. What a strange rule...
Right. Ja. He defines a safety zone to allow for the possibility of characters being knocked unconscious and bleeding without being instantly snuffed. But it's not guaranteed. If you take a big enough hit, even under this optional rule, and get dropped past the unconscious and bleeding range, you're still just dead.

I actually implemented a similar rule in my 5 Torches Deep game, at player request. If damage would take a character to -5 or below they're straight up killed. 0 to -4 they're unconscious and get to roll on the injury chart when someone bandages or heals them, to find out if they survived and if so, how badly hurt.
 



If I could take the 4e books (or a modified edited version) back to 16 year old me, I think I would be fighting tooth and nail to never play anything eles...

I say modified because I think the OPTION of a simple fighter (slayer/knight) is good, and I think that the latter editions of utilitie/skill powers and themes made major improvements.

I would also just take a black marker to any of the expertise feats, and pen in a suggestion to half the HP of all the monsters that are not solo/end boss monsters.
 

Remove ads

Top