D&D General Maybe I was ALWAYs playing 4e... even in 2e

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
my 1 slayer was dex max con second str third... and I used a longbow as my main weapon
I did the same thing. Well supposedly I was an Elven Samurai, but every time I got into melee, the enemy had some goofy "reaction/interrupt" that messed me up, so I just shot things for d8+double Dex and forgot Power Attack existed.

One thing 4e reinforced in me real quick is that being in melee sucks. Ever get tail swiped by a Dracolich and stunned (save ends) because you had the nerve to close into melee range? No bueno!
 

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pemerton

Legend
Oh I see what you're saying. How strange. So if you're brought to 0 you remain alive til -10 (or optionally if reduced to -3) but if you're reduced to -4 you just die instantly? Mea culpa, that is not how I read it at first. What a strange rule...
Right. Ja. He defines a safety zone to allow for the possibility of characters being knocked unconscious and bleeding without being instantly snuffed. But it's not guaranteed. If you take a big enough hit, even under this optional rule, and get dropped past the unconscious and bleeding range, you're still just dead.
Right. I find the Gygax rule seems to often be misread. (As I posted upthread, I don't know the 2nd ed rule.)

Gygax's rule, as I understand it, is that being dropped to zero is unconsciousness and bleeding (with a lower limit of -10) while being dropped below zero is death. There is an option to expand the "safety zone" to -3. I think the expanded safety zone kinda works in a system where the damage range is often a d8 or thereabouts, and so the prospect of falling from consciousness to the safety zone is realistic. Obviously in a game with 3E or 4e or even 5e damage spreads, having such a narrow safety zone would make no sense!

It's not spelled out what happens to a character who is in the unconsciousness zone and takes more damage (other than from bleeding), but I think it makes sense that they die. This is reinforced by the text that @Garthanos has been pointing out: once someone falls unconscious, then if restored above zero hp they are comatose for 1d6 turns (ie up to an hour), and then have a period of enfeeblement and recovery regardless of what happens to their hit point total. During this period, which is described as "a full week, minimum" the character may "move slowly to a place of rest and eat and sleep" but "cannot attack, defend, cast spells, use magic devices, carry burdens, run, study, research, or do anything else" (p 82). Only a Heal spell can alleviate this condition. Being unable to defend implies to me that any damage taken is fatal.

Unearthed Arcana had two rules that interact with the negative hit point space. One was a quirky rule for good cavaliers, who can function at negative hit points: instead of falling unconscious they cannot further attack but must rest, may bind wounds, and may seek further healing. This is not spelled out in any further detail, but if using this rule I would treat the cavalier at negative hit points as being in the same condition as the person who has been restored from unconsciousness to above zero hp.

The other UA rule is the 3rd level spell Death's Door, which brings a creature in the -1 to -9 hp range to zero hp, and stops bleeding, for 1 hour/level. The spell text is not perfectly clear: it says that the target of the spell, having been brought to zero hp, can have hp restored and be brought to consciousness by other healing magic. The way we interpreted it back in the day is that it allows the character to be restored without suffering the period of coma and subsequent need to rest for a week.

(Only very vaguely related: if I was to play AD&D these days I would move Cure Serious Wounds from 4th to 3rd level (leaving it at 4th level for Druids), Restoration to 5th level (ie the same as Raise Dead) and Regeneration to 6th (ie the same as Heal).)
 

pemerton

Legend
I would also just take a black marker to any of the expertise feats, and pen in a suggestion to half the HP of all the monsters that are not solo/end boss monsters.
In the game that my group played to 30th level, and that is currently in revival after a multi-year hiatus, we ignored expertise feats but left hp largely unchanged.

when I read that Wisdom was supposed to be a secondary stat for Wizards, I was surprised, since almost no powers require it outside of thunderwave, which wasn't even that good...
It's interesting how experiences differ. At 15th level, the wizard in our group died and came back to life as an invoker. But he took the wizard multiclass feat to keep Thunderwave as an encounter power, and he also has a variant of it - Gust of Wind, I think - as a daily power from his Rod of Seven Parts. It's always played extremely well at our table - the most dramatic that I remember is him blasting a demon through the wall of a building onto the street below, but he's always wanting to push enemies around.

I'd invested heavily in Rituals so I'd have answers to any non-combat problem that came along. Right up until we were playing an LFR mod in Calimshan where we needed to cross a desert and I was like "oh, I'll cast this! and then that! oh and phantom steeds!", and the DM looked at me and asked if I could save my residuum because otherwise there wouldn't be any adventure.

Even the adventure designers had given up on pretending the game supported the exploration tier!
I don't know what the adventure was, but this is curious to me. The invoker/wizard in my game used rituals all the time, including Phantom Steeds, but this was the starting point for travel/exploration (normally being resolved as a skill challenge). More than one combat encounter at our table has started with a Phantom Steed taking damage . . .

One thing 4e reinforced in me real quick is that being in melee sucks. Ever get tail swiped by a Dracolich and stunned (save ends) because you had the nerve to close into melee range? No bueno!
I did use a MM Dracolich once. I can't remember who got stunned or for how long, but by then the PCs would have had the Essentials feats that give a start-of-turn save vs being stunned (Superior Will?).

When GMing, my general goal is to try and get as many PCs into melee as I can, because it's more interesting than ranged combat!
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
In the game that my group played to 30th level, and that is currently in revival after a multi-year hiatus, we ignored expertise feats but left hp largely unchanged.

It's interesting how experiences differ. At 15th level, the wizard in our group died and came back to life as an invoker. But he took the wizard multiclass feat to keep Thunderwave as an encounter power, and he also has a variant of it - Gust of Wind, I think - as a daily power from his Rod of Seven Parts. It's always played extremely well at our table - the most dramatic that I remember is him blasting a demon through the wall of a building onto the street below, but he's always wanting to push enemies around.

I don't know what the adventure was, but this is curious to me. The invoker/wizard in my game used rituals all the time, including Phantom Steeds, but this was the starting point for travel/exploration (normally being resolved as a skill challenge). More than one combat encounter at our table has started with a Phantom Steed taking damage . . .

I did use a MM Dracolich once. I can't remember who got stunned or for how long, but by then the PCs would have had the Essentials feats that give a start-of-turn save vs being stunned (Superior Will?).

When GMing, my general goal is to try and get as many PCs into melee as I can, because it's more interesting than ranged combat!
CALI3-3 Agony of Almraiven. I should read it, since it might actually account for Ritual use- I just know what the DM said at the time.

As for my comment about Thunderwave, I'm probably not being fair to it by comparing it to beguiling strands, which was one of my go-to level 1 Wizard At-Wills when it was introduced, but that was quite a bit later in 4e.
 

pemerton

Legend
As for my comment about Thunderwave, I'm probably not being fair to it by comparing it to beguiling strands, which was one of my go-to level 1 Wizard At-Wills when it was introduced, but that was quite a bit later in 4e.
Bigger AoE, but smaller push (once you're out of Heroic tier - I think Thunderwave for the 30th level Invoker/Wizard is push 8 sq) and because it's psychic and not thunder, it won't be blasting anyone through any walls!

Gust of Wind on the Rod of 7 Parts is the same AoE and push (blast 5, push for 5 squares) as Beguiling Strands, but vs Fortitude rather than Will, and 1d10 + Wis untyped damage.

I know some people thought Beguiling Strands was broken, but I think it's just good. My player never seems to have been tempted to swap to it.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Bigger AoE, but smaller push (once you're out of Heroic tier - I think Thunderwave for the 30th level Invoker/Wizard is push 8 sq) and because it's psychic and not thunder, it won't be blasting anyone through any walls!

Gust of Wind on the Rod of 7 Parts is the same AoE and push (blast 5, push for 5 squares) as Beguiling Strands, but vs Fortitude rather than Will, and 1d10 + Wis untyped damage.

I know some people thought Beguiling Strands was broken, but I think it's just good. My player never seems to have been tempted to swap to it.
I never thought it was broken, but as my Wizard was an Orb user who did psychic damage, it was pretty nice. Plus it's a great minion zapper. While Thunderwave could get better, that Wis investment was a little rough at first.

That's about all I can say though, apparently if you build around it, it can be quite nice.
 


James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
What was your wizard's second stat?

Ours started as a human with INT 20, and so WIS probably 14. On that build, Thunderwave doesn't pass Beguiling Strands until Paragaon. (And I think we were at Paragon when Essentials came out.)
Since I came in a couple years in, when there were more options, I had my terrible (synergy wise, but still effective due to his focus on psychic damage) Bard/Wizard Hybrid (Int/Cha), and the straight Wizard I had just started with a 20 Int and I think a 14 Con (using Thay Background to base hp off Int).

I did make a hybrid 20 Int Human Warlord/Wizard for the D&D Next playtest that was just silly with high defenses (the DM didn't believe me when I said our group didn't usually play optimized characters so we made some).
 

pemerton

Legend
Since I came in a couple years in, when there were more options, I had my terrible (synergy wise, but still effective due to his focus on psychic damage) Bard/Wizard Hybrid (Int/Cha), and the straight Wizard I had just started with a 20 Int and I think a 14 Con (using Thay Background to base hp off Int).
Yeah, an INT/CHA wizard is not super-optimised, though I imagine was still able to get plenty of stuff done!
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Yeah, an INT/CHA wizard is not super-optimised, though I imagine was still able to get plenty of stuff done!
I had fun, which is really all that mattered to me. But yeah, if I'd kept playing 4e when I came out, I'd have probably gone Int/Wis and used Thunderwave. It's just by the time I got into playing, I had other choices.
 

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