Vaalingrade
Legend
Too late. You're already addressing alignment, the source of most problematic things in D&D.
D&D General Rethinking alignment yet again
- Thread starter Kinematics
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payn
Glory to Marik
Also, at the table. My group loves these discussions (well our discussions on alignment, not these online forum ones).
RuinousPowers
Hero
This explains the CG "favored of the gods of Good" elves enslaving their brethren in Dragonlance.
RuinousPowers
Hero
As far as I'm concerned, it's alignment's only virtue.
Vaalingrade
Legend
The morality of Dragonlance was... interesting.
Wait, no terrifying. Terrifying is the word.
jmartkdr2
Hero
My initial reading was that the whole thing is a cautionary tale about assuming that people who say they’re good are telling the truth.
Plus the G rating means Team Evil is more like Team Spooky.
Vaalingrade
Legend
If the slavery was the only issue it would... well still be awful, but there's so much more. Like the wizards running a murder dungeon to determine if you're a good boy or not, the gods attempting omnicide, kender, the treatment of the gully dwarves, etc etc and this is from the first book.
And the expectation is for me to accept this twisted morality as objective because some people find it useful to label monsters and harshly judge PCs?
I say thee nay.
And the expectation is for me to accept this twisted morality as objective because some people find it useful to label monsters and harshly judge PCs?
I say thee nay.
Man in the Funny Hat
Hero
VERY few individuals really know what it is that alignment is supposed to do within D&D. I mean a RARE, rare few judging by internet posts I've read since the internet was even a thing (pre-WWW). Ask 10 people what alignment is FOR - you'll get 10 different answers. Why? Because the rules don't define that for themselves - and even if they do, players are so confused by historical misconceptions and everybody else's whacky takes on it that they can't sort it out for themselves. Ask for an actual rules citation for what alignment is supposed to do within the game (for ANY edition) and chances are outstanding you'll get no responses at all which genuinely answer the request. That includes game designers and even Gygax himself. Alignment has no "mission statement". Never did. Go back and read OD&D booklets and you'll see that alignment EXISTS in the game but is utterly unexplained. If you hadn't read the right fiction from Moorcock or Anderson, or gamed with someone who did (and could thus explain it to you) the purpose of having alignment and how to use it was a complete mystery you had to solve yourself. RPG designers actually understand no more than individual players about alignment so they never think to sort that out first BEFORE writing alignment rules - and then of course they have to combat 40 years of misinterpretations and confusion and players never bothering to actually READ rules that they assume they already understand. As Twain said, "It ain't what I don't know that gets me in trouble, but what I know for certain that just ain't so."
Over 20 years ago I put a large effort into answering two questions for myself: What is it that alignment is supposed to do within D&D? How does alignment go about fulfilling its purpose(s)? I reached my own conclusions and wrote documentation for MY players to refer to. I've made virtually no changes to it since then. None have been needed, even across multiple editions. I know what I want alignment to do and how to make it do that. Everyone else's opinions and even chapters of new rules from new editions have therefore been irrelevant. I seldom flog it anywhere, because as is obvious with EVERY discussion regarding alignment, ask 10 people what alignment is even FOR and you get 10 different answers. Literally I've done that on multiple boards and the results are the same - complete INCONSISTENCY of responses. BTB answers about alignment are irrelevant. DM's must sort out answers for themselves and their own campaigns - AND THEN EXPLAIN THOSE ANSWERS IN DETAIL TO THEIR OWN PLAYERS. Anything less is a waste of effort anymore. You can't ask for advice and opinions about it online. There isn't a universal truth about alignment; no BTB answers that are going to satisfy even a plurality, much less a majority. There is nothing new to be said about alignment. It's all been said already and answers will never be reached by asking the same questions and regurgitating the same answers again and again and again - all without having first identified that first, most basic question that nobody asks and therefore cannot answer - what is alignment FOR?
Answer that for yourself and you will finally be on the road to understanding how to use it.
Over 20 years ago I put a large effort into answering two questions for myself: What is it that alignment is supposed to do within D&D? How does alignment go about fulfilling its purpose(s)? I reached my own conclusions and wrote documentation for MY players to refer to. I've made virtually no changes to it since then. None have been needed, even across multiple editions. I know what I want alignment to do and how to make it do that. Everyone else's opinions and even chapters of new rules from new editions have therefore been irrelevant. I seldom flog it anywhere, because as is obvious with EVERY discussion regarding alignment, ask 10 people what alignment is even FOR and you get 10 different answers. Literally I've done that on multiple boards and the results are the same - complete INCONSISTENCY of responses. BTB answers about alignment are irrelevant. DM's must sort out answers for themselves and their own campaigns - AND THEN EXPLAIN THOSE ANSWERS IN DETAIL TO THEIR OWN PLAYERS. Anything less is a waste of effort anymore. You can't ask for advice and opinions about it online. There isn't a universal truth about alignment; no BTB answers that are going to satisfy even a plurality, much less a majority. There is nothing new to be said about alignment. It's all been said already and answers will never be reached by asking the same questions and regurgitating the same answers again and again and again - all without having first identified that first, most basic question that nobody asks and therefore cannot answer - what is alignment FOR?
Answer that for yourself and you will finally be on the road to understanding how to use it.
Celebrim
Legend
@Man in the Funny Hat : Fundamentally the questions alignment raises are difficult ones. If you ask people, "What does it mean to be good?", not only is this question a vexingly complex one, but it's not a vexingly complex one that most people haven't spent a lot of time thinking about. But as you note, everyone already believes that they understand anyway so they'll confidently try to answer it. This isn't just a problem related to rules text in D&D. I wouldn't expect people to have answers to the question, "Why should one be good?", because it's a question so obvious most people never realize it's a question much less try to answer it. But ask it, and people will confidently tell you an answer. If your kid says, "I'm not going to do my homework because it's not important because of the heat death of the universe.", most people aren't going to try to solve the ethical dilemma raised by that. They are just going to say something that amounts to "Do it anyway." and probably some variation of "Or else." So of course there are no answers to be found in a game text, and of course there has been no consistency across products or editions of the game.
I'll give you a simplified answer to the question "What is alignment for?" based on my reading of the 1e AD&D DMG and not necessarily how it is usually used. Originally Gygax seems to have used alignment to force players who were going to play in a me first anti-social way to mark that on their character sheet as a warning to the group, while giving him an excuse to punish players who were anti-social but failed to do that. Managing dozens of players, many of whom probably weren't close personal friends, Gygax was using in game constructs as incentive to not be a jerk at the table. It's not however ever been usually used that way because the framework outlined in the 1e DMG has never really been used much at typical tables with 3-7 friends playing together.
I'll give you a simplified answer to the question "What is alignment for?" based on my reading of the 1e AD&D DMG and not necessarily how it is usually used. Originally Gygax seems to have used alignment to force players who were going to play in a me first anti-social way to mark that on their character sheet as a warning to the group, while giving him an excuse to punish players who were anti-social but failed to do that. Managing dozens of players, many of whom probably weren't close personal friends, Gygax was using in game constructs as incentive to not be a jerk at the table. It's not however ever been usually used that way because the framework outlined in the 1e DMG has never really been used much at typical tables with 3-7 friends playing together.
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