D&D 5E Is 5E Special

[payn]

Outside of combat, to do most impactgul things, a caster needs to spend a resource thst has specific in-combat implications further on the road in the day. For full balance, that's why the Adventure fay is important. Now, the game works if the game isn't pushed that far, it will still work,but it won't be "balanced" if that matters.

Oh, the adventuring day. This has been a problem for a long time now. In 3E, just about every town had vending machines with spell in can that shot the adventuring day to hell. 4E really blurred the lines with ADEU, but at least tried to keep the adventuring day theme going with healing surges (god that name....). 5E sort of split the difference, but now has the odd 6-8 encounters a day so that short rest classes can manage their resources.

I do wish more thought would be put into the adventuring day and how the system works. To me, that means getting rid of encounter powers, and stopping the bottling of spells. Though, its more likely in the future they will go the PF2 route and just blow up any concept of adventuring day at all. Future seems to be balanced around before and between encounters.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The Spell slots have a specific mathematical value, in HP terms.

I can see you're repeating this, but it's meaningless without specifics, and it's clear that even if it's true, it's based on bad design assumptions.

You've totally failed to counter my argument re: skills. I will repeat it, but unless you can counter it, your point fails.

Full casters have the same number of skills as a Fighter - or more (depending on the Full caster), and also have better stats for using skills (INT/WIS/CHA instead of STR/DEX/CON). Even if we ignore spells entirely, full casters are already ahead because of that.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

No, it's also on the rules and the advice about how to use the rules, and on the fact that D&D chooses to use a high-RNG method of determining success/failure, whilst consistently presenting skill usage as a binary pass/fail.

I just want to talk about the d20 for a moment (and kinda why 11th level rogue is SOOO AMAZING) even with lowish DC of 9, if you have a +1 you can roll a 1-7... once DCs (and I find this an issue more with saves but also with skills/tools) start hitting 15+ that die is WAY too important.

a PC at level 1 untrained in a skill/save/tool but havign a +2 stat is pretty good... even a trained +3 stat is only a +5 but come level 10 those same too now have +2 vs +7 and that should be a big gap... heck lets throw in an expertise and +4 stat to make it +2,+7, and +12 what is this supposed to represent?

+2 is a novice, +7 is someone pretty good and knowladgeable, and +12 is pretty much a master of the craft... but the variable of 1-20 means that a dc 17 is hittable by the novice, 50/50 for someone pretty good and 75% for the master of the craft... from a game point that sounds fair... BUT narratively it is NUTS.

I am a novice maybe even slightly above novice in many things (technology, science, math, accounting, history, driving, making armor, and even basketball) but my odds of doing better then a master who spent years on any of the fields is small enough it might as well be 0... even in my prime I am not beating Michael Jorden at Horse... even if he spots me H.O.R.
Maybe in a VERY rare occasion I MIGHT know a history fact better then my buddy who was a History Major... but not that often.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Now you're proving my point. You're saying "If people don't like magic being dominant and want to play a strong non-magical class, they should pick magic!". It's just totally silly.

"I want to do the cool things, have the options but not use magic..."
"then pick magic"

this is why my fighters are all refluffed hexblades and bards, and why half our melee combatants are full casters (bards annd bladesinger)

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I just want to talk about the d20 for a moment (and kinda why 11th level rogue is SOOO AMAZING) even with lowish DC of 9, if you have a +1 you can roll a 1-7... once DCs (and I find this an issue more with saves but also with skills/tools) start hitting 15+ that die is WAY too important.

a PC at level 1 untrained in a skill/save/tool but havign a +2 stat is pretty good... even a trained +3 stat is only a +5 but come level 10 those same too now have +2 vs +7 and that should be a big gap... heck lets throw in an expertise and +4 stat to make it +2,+7, and +12 what is this supposed to represent?

+2 is a novice, +7 is someone pretty good and knowladgeable, and +12 is pretty much a master of the craft... but the variable of 1-20 means that a dc 17 is hittable by the novice, 50/50 for someone pretty good and 75% for the master of the craft... from a game point that sounds fair... BUT narratively it is NUTS.

I am a novice maybe even slightly above novice in many things (technology, science, math, accounting, history, driving, making armor, and even basketball) but my odds of doing better then a master who spent years on any of the fields is small enough it might as well be 0... even in my prime I am not beating Michael Jorden at Horse... even if he spots me H.O.R.
Maybe in a VERY rare occasion I MIGHT know a history fact better then my buddy who was a History Major... but not that often.

Can I upvote this post more than hearteyes lol? I mean, this is spot-on.

And yeah that level 11 Reliable Talent is absolutely nuts. I've seen it in-game. Treating sub-10 rolls as 10 on things like Persuasion, Deception, Stealth or Acrobatics is absolutely amazing. Eloquence Bards get it at level 3 with Persuasion/Deception and it's a complete GAME-CHANGER on the social game, because most of your failures before were just unlucky rolls due to the high RNG of a d20.

And yeah we always see the dynamic you describe in 5E because anyone can "try" a skill (unlike a lot of RPGs), and there's often limited downside, so a bunch of numpties attempt a Religion check and very often one of them gets it when the actual Cleric, who didn't even dump INT, does not.

I think a lot of these out-of-combat issues could have been solved by:

A) Giving every Class some Expertise in skills, and a limited list to pick from.

B) Giving a lot more classes the equivalent of "Reliable Talent".

They could also have buffed Rogues up a bit to help them stay ahead.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I rather see it as: if you don't like a red car, just don't buy a red car. But don't go and tell Ferrari, that they should colour all of them blue, just because you like it better that way. Of course you can politely ask, but not demand it.

how about if there is a car company that only makes blue cars in 1 model... you can have any model in green or red or yellow, but only that 1 in blue... so you ask if one of the other models, one you like the performenc on more, could come in blue and you get people that just keep telling you "Just take a green one and pretend it's blue"

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

It doesn't, though, that's the point, because EK doesn't get strong enough magic compared to a full caster. They don't get enough spells to do utility and combat - whereas a full caster does. An EK has to pick - and most will pick combat. If they don't pick combat, then, they are actually are "underpowered" in combat compared to a BM. EKs have to go very hard into combat spells (particularly Shadow Blade) to even stay close to BMs.

Sorry, tangent, but this is the casting progression I use for my 1/3 caster to make spellcasting more interesting than spamming Shield and Absorb Element all day long. And access to any wizard spells. It's only a little slower than 1/2, but its way less slots, so It think it balances out.

Spell Slots per Spell Level
Level	Cantrips Known	Spells Known	1st	2nd	3rd	4th
1st	-	—	—	—	—	—
2nd	-	—	—	—	—	—
3rd	2	3	2	—	—	—
4th	2	4	3	—	—	—
5th	2	4	3	—	—	—
6th	2	4	3	1	—	—
7th	2	5	4	2	—	—
8th	2	6	4	2	—	—
9th	2	6	4	2	—	—
10th	3	7	4	3	1	—
11th	3	8	4	3	1	—
12th	3	8	4	3	1	—
13th	3	9	4	3	2	—
14th	3	10	4	3	2	1
15th	3	10	4	3	2	1
16th	3	11	4	3	3	1
17th	3	11	4	3	3	1
18th	3	11	4	3	3	1
19th	3	12	4	3	3	1
20th	3	13	4	3	3	2

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It always depends on the assumptions you put in.
If you consider that level 5 spells allow you to do things no mundane character can ever do without help of magical items, than it is a default win for the EK.

this is the thing... pick a full caster or warlock (I always think of them as full even if not) now useing ONLY that list look at 5th level spells (remember they get them at 9th level) pick any 3 BUT at least 1 has to be utility or at least not damaging.

now imagine a 20th level fighter with 20 in all 3 physical stats BUT no magic items... can that 20th level fighter do things similar as those options that 9th level full caster got (not the exact same mind you... just in the same approximately)
If you answer yes to all three go up to 6th level spells and do it again...

I can't do it with 5th level (aka 9th level casters) but by 6th they just blow everything out of the water.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Fair, but the Eldritch Knight and the Champion balance out in the math department.

I wonder if with the new Tasha's maneuvers if you can make a battle master as good as a 1/3 caster out of combat... I know you can't with champion but maybe with maneuvers (that should be on every fighter maybe every fighter and rogue)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The issue is that this isn't true. Casters rapidly gain so many spell slots that they don't meaningfully degrade their combat performance by also using utility spells. You'd have to pretty much halve spells/day at higher levels to do that.

warlocks can get eldritch blast that is equal or better then any basic attack class with a single investment of 1 invocation... and crazy powerful with multi.
half the clerics some warlocks and bards and even atleast 1 wizard can gain a 2nd attack meaning until level 11 they don't even need to use resources to equal the fighter...

some clerics (I think paliden too maybe not) can add a d8 radiant damage on melee weapon attacks at level 11 when fighters get there 3rd attack... but those clerics already have 2 attacks so they are still keeping up without useing spells.