D&D (2024) Down Leveling spells, from the Expert Classes playtest.

[Yaarel]

If I were to "downlevel" Fireball, I would have it be something like this:

That would make it so 1st level fireball would be a 10-foot radius sphere that deals 2d6 damage and 2nd level fireball has a radius of 15 feet and deals 5d6. That's still pretty powerful for those levels, but not super game-breaking.

Your suggestion for an "At Lower Levels" mechanic is excellent.

I can see uses for this, where it is appropriate to get a spell at a higher tier, but once having it, can use less resources for it.



For the Fireball spell specifically, I would rather correct its damage to balance alongside other spells at slot 3. Having weird damage for Fireball makes it more difficult to balance the other spells, because Fireball warps the comparisons when deciding how much damage each slot should deal.

Then if designers want the Wizard to be iconic with Fireball, then it needs to be a Wizard class feature (or subclass feature), to add damage to the spell.

 

[cbwjm]

One of the things that this downcasting makes me think, is that if a spell can be cast with a lower slot, why not just make the spell a 1st level spell? Like make fireball a 1st level spell with a 10 ft radius doing 2d6 fire damage and upcasting it increased it's power by 2d6 and 5ft radius per level.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

If I were to "downlevel" Fireball, I would have it be something like this:

That would make it so 1st level fireball would be a 10-foot radius sphere that deals 2d6 damage and 2nd level fireball has a radius of 15 feet and deals 5d6. That's still pretty powerful for those levels, but not super game-breaking.

the fact that I would still cast those and think them GREAT shows how OP the spell is

 

[Yaarel]

The spells themselves in the Player Handbook ignore the advice in the DMs Guide (page 284) for spells that deal multi-target save-for-half damage.

Supposedly the expected damage is:

Slot: Damage
1: 2d6
2: 4d6
3: 6d6
4: 7d6
5: 8d6
6: 11d6
7: 12d6
8: 13d6
9: 14d6

However, the Players Handbook spells explode the above guideline.

3: 8d6 (!) Fireball
9: 20d6 + 20d6 (!) Meteor Swarm



The gaming engine is more like 2d6 x Slot Level damage.

[0: 1d6]
1: 2d6
2: 4d6
3: 6d6
4: 8d6
5: 10d6
6: 12d6
7: 14d6
8: 16d6
9: 18d6
[10: 20d6]

Note, some spells swap damage for other effects, or else boost damage if a save-for-no-damage.


In any case, Fireball either needs to become a slot 4 spell, or its damage needs to reduce to 6d6 as appropriate for the other slot 3 spells.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I really hope they add more upcasting to various spells, especially in the “more targets” style.

If I had it my way, I would cut a big chunk of the spells in 5e by combing all of the ones that have very similar effects but become more powerful at higher levels. For example, if I were in charge of changing 5e's spell system, I would combine Dominate Beast, Dominate Person, and Dominate Monster into a single spell that dominates a target but only certain creature types depending on what level you cast it at (beasts with level 4 spell slots, humanoids with 5th level, continuing on with higher level slots until all monster types are included).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

If I had it my way, I would cut a big chunk of the spells in 5e by combing all of the ones that have very similar effects but become more powerful at higher levels. For example, if I were in charge of changing 5e's spell system, I would combine Dominate Beast, Dominate Person, and Dominate Monster into a single spell that dominates a target but only certain creature types depending on what level you cast it at (beasts with level 4 spell slots, humanoids with 5th level, continuing on with higher level slots until all monster types are included).

I did this at the beginning, I made a WAY condensed spell list and put what my players called 'minor spell lists' that were thematic groups and casting at different levels. HOWEVER doing so gave a major boost as casters were able to prep/know more spells that way

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I did this at the beginning, I made a WAY condensed spell list and put what my players called 'minor spell lists' that were thematic groups and casting at different levels. HOWEVER doing so gave a major boost as casters were able to prep/know more spells that way

Then reduce the number of spells that mages can prepare. Or, ignore the minor boost, because the mages don't have any more spell slots than before and are just given a slight increase in versatility with casting.

 

[NotAYakk]

Please take a look at the video where I think they say they are experimenting with down-leveling spells and that this one spell is just an example.

Edit: I updated the op to contain the info.

Nm, misread.

 

[Maxperson]

@Maxperson @NotAYakk

I've updated the OP and added a link to the video at the point where they say it is a test of the feature in general.

I listened to it and I don't think it's a general feature. He says they are experimenting with the new feature and he was excited to put it into the ranger. He was saying that it's about down leveling A spell, which can be read as a single specific spell or more generally, but then he goes on to say the following. The reason that it's so important is because classes like the ranger and paladin have so few slots that it's good for them to be able to do this.

You could be right, but I don't think what Crawford said in THIS video supports a general version being the goal. We will see!

 

[Staffan]

Yeah, I don't think downleveling spells will be a general thing spells do. It could easily be a common class/sub-class ability to downlevel specific spells, when the situation calls for it.

But as others have pointed out, conjure barrage is a horrible example, because the damage is ridiculously low. For my money, an appropriate level 11 ability would be to cast conjure barrage at will. 3d8 at level 11, even in a huge area, is nothing.