D&D (2024) Down Leveling spells, from the Expert Classes playtest.

[Minigiant]

Down casting won't be a general feature.

It's too weak for half casters.
It's too strong for full casters.

If there were 2/3 casters like the 3e bard, this might have worked.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Down casting won't be a general feature.

It's too weak for half casters.
It's too strong for full casters.

If there were 2/3 casters like the 3e bard, this might have worked.

I don't think you are right. It is good enough for half casters and not too good for full casters.
Especially with the new preparation rules (that allows you to only have very few spells per level prepared), the option to downlevel some spells could be huge.

Even if fireball really goes down 3d6 damage per level, which leaves a low damage (2d6) huge area blast, that might be worthwhile once in a while, but in no way overpowered for a full caster.

A 5d6 level 2 blast would be quite huge, but is still not game breaking.

I mean, if you are able to downcast, you only do it in dire circumstances, as normally holding back in the first few rounds often costs you more ressources in the long run.

 

[Minigiant]

I don't think you are right. It is good enough for half casters and not too good for full casters.
Especially with the new preparation rules (that allows you to only have very few spells per level prepared), the option to downlevel some spells could be huge.

Even if fireball really goes down 3d6 damage per level, which leaves a low damage (2d6) huge area blast, that might be worthwhile once in a while, but in no way overpowered for a full caster.

A 5d6 level 2 blast would be quite hige, but is still not game breaking.

Almost every damage spell that could be downcasted is already too weak for half casters. They get slots way too slow.

5e is designed that you don't use under leveled slots. Spells aren't buffed by caster level. So 1st and 2nd level spells are too weak for damage at level 11. Casting magic missle at level 10 is weak in 90% of cases.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Almost every damage spell that could be downcasted is already too weak for half casters. They get slots way too slow.

5e is designed that you don't use under leveled slots. Spells aren't buffed by caster level. So 1st and 2nd level spells are too weak for damage at level 11. Casting magic missle at level 10 is weak in 90% of cases.

Really depends on your playstyle.
In our ganes, even 1/3 casters got good use out of their low level spells.

If you only have "deadly" encounters with "level appropriate" foes, low level spells have no use.
In our game we have a wide spread of all kinds of encounters and even low level minions have their place in a high level encounter. And a low level spell to clear the out really makes life less miserable for the fighters.

I don't think 5e is designed wrong in that regard. I think you misinterpret it.

 

[NotAYakk]

Really depends on your playstyle.
In our ganes, even 1/3 casters got good use out of their low level spells.

If you only have "deadly" encounters with "level appropriate" foes, low level spells have no use.
In our game we have a wide spread of all kinds of encounters and even low level minions have their place in a high level encounter. And a low level spell to clear the out really makes life less miserable for the fighters.

I don't think 5e is designed wrong in that regard. I think you misinterpret it.

The claim isn't low level spells are useless. It is that the damage isn't worth the action.

A 1st level spell like burning hands does 10 damage; it takes a lucky cast to drop even a cr 1/8 guard, and it is a 15' cone, so getting more than 2 requires a tight packing.

The same action as an attack would drop 2-3 of the guards at T3. So a spell known and a spell slot used for at best marginally better killing of low threat foes.

I mean it'll be flashy and fun. And as a DM, I could imagine having foes pack super tight to give the player some fun.

 

[Minigiant]

Really depends on your playstyle.
In our ganes, even 1/3 casters got good use out of their low level spells.

If you only have "deadly" encounters with "level appropriate" foes, low level spells have no use.
In our game we have a wide spread of all kinds of encounters and even low level minions have their place in a high level encounter. And a low level spell to clear the out really makes life less miserable for the fighters.

You missing my point.

The spells that you can upcast are damage spells.
The spell that you will likely be ones you could upcast.
Damage spells of under level don't deal much damage to high level challenges unless you DM runs 1HD gobbos at PC level 11.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The claim isn't low level spells are useless. It is that the damage isn't worth the action.

A 1st level spell like burning hands does 10 damage; it takes a lucky cast to drop even a cr 1/8 guard, and it is a 15' cone, so getting more than 2 requires a tight packing.

The same action as an attack would drop 2-3 of the guards at T3. So a spell known and a spell slot used for at best marginally better killing of low threat foes.

I mean it'll be flashy and fun. And as a DM, I could imagine having foes pack super tight to give the player some fun.

And this is why we are not speaking of burning hands at the moment, but downleveleing fireball... which would have a huge area, maybe annihilating a whole military unit.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You missing my point.

The spells that you can upcast are damage spells.
The spell that you will likely be ones you could upcast.
Damage spells of under level don't deal much damage to high level challenges unless you DM runs 1HD gobbos at PC level 11.

Which we do sometimes. Does not have to be a regular use, but nice at some times. So why not add the option, so you don't have to memorize a low level area damage spell just for the rare case? Noone forces you to downcast. Upcasting also is often not worth it for a fireball, but also nice to have.

 

[Minigiant]

Which we do sometimes. Does not have to be a regular use, but nice at some times. So why not add the option, so you don't have to memorize a low level area damage spell just for the rare case? Noone forces you to downcast. Upcasting also is often not worth it for a fireball, but also nice to have.

It's not worth the class feature.

If old Favored enemy and terrain was too niche, Downcasting is too.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It's not worth the class feature.

If old Favored enemy and terrain was too niche, Downcasting is too.

Not for this spell, I agree. Does not mean the concept is bad.