D&D (2024) Down Leveling spells, from the Expert Classes playtest.

[UngeheuerLich]

I'd argue that trying to make that change in an iterative edition morph is futile - the time to make that change would have been 2012-2013, when we were helping curate the direction of 5e at a whole. One D&D is built upon the body of 5e, unlike 4e which wasn't shackled to 3e or 5e that wasn't shackled to 4e. This is more like 3.5e or 4Essentials or 2e Player's Option, so trying to make major changes to how spellcasting works in its entirety is probably off the table.

I don´t see the major change here. The difference between upleveling and downleveling is not that big. But as I said, maybe my assessment her is wrong... maybe we should ask our professional confused customer.

 

[Marandahir]

I don´t see the major change here. The difference between upleveling and downleveling is not that big. But as I said, maybe my assessment her is wrong... maybe we should ask our professional confused customer.

Sorry, again I may have stated that confusingly.

The major change is not downcasting - it would be re-writing the game's magic system in a way that isn't confusing.

The issue I have is that grafting downleveling onto an already confusing system has a real cost that could drive players away from the fiction at large rather than draw them in with the benefits this offers (letting you weaken your magic to spend fewer resources on it).

I think that issue would be avoided by building the magic system from the group up to avoid the traditional vancian spell slot tables but THAT would be too much for this stage in the game. Adding downcasting isn't too much for this stage - after all, WotC proposed it themselves - but I fear it would be too confusing to be a worthwhile dial on the game's systems.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Sorry, again I may have stated that confusingly.

The major change is not downcasting - it would be re-writing the game's magic system in a way that isn't confusing.

The issue I have is that grafting downleveling onto an already confusing system has a real cost that could drive players away from the fiction at large rather than draw them in with the benefits this offers (letting you weaken your magic to spend fewer resources on it).

I think that issue would be avoided by building the magic system from the group up to avoid the traditional vancian spell slot tables but THAT would be too much for this stage in the game. Adding downcasting isn't too much for this stage - after all, WotC proposed it themselves - but I fear it would be too confusing to be a worthwhile dial on the game's systems.

I really don't see where the system is confusing. Sorry. But as I said, maybe my imagination is limited.

 

[cbwjm]

I don´t see the major change here. The difference between upleveling and downleveling is not that big. But as I said, maybe my assessment her is wrong... maybe we should ask our professional confused customer.

I feel like that might be me...

My main point of confusion with downcasting is something people have brought up, if my wizard at level 5 I can learn fireball and cast it as a 1st level spell, why couldn't I cast it at level 1? Though I did see @Marandahir post that gaining access to 3rd level spells is a way to say that the spell has that entry level requirement, but it is unrelated to the spell slot used which I thought was a great way of explaining it.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I feel like that might be me...

My main point of confusion with downcasting is something people have brought up, if my wizard at level 5 I can learn fireball and cast it as a 1st level spell, why couldn't I cast it at level 1? Though I did see @Marandahir post that gaining access to 3rd level spells is a way to say that the spell has that entry level requirement, but it is unrelated to the spell slot used which I thought was a great way of explaining it.

I don't see how this is rebuilding the system. It is just clarifying that level 3 spells are accessed by wizards level 5.
I am still of the opinion to rename spell level to spell grade, as it was in German books long ago.

 

[cbwjm]

I don't see how this is rebuilding the system. It is just clarifying that level 3 spells are accessed by wizards level 5.
I am still of the opinion to rename spell level to spell grade, as it was in German books long ago.

I actually quite like circle. A wizard saying that they're a master of the 6th circle sounds like someone you'd think twice about before attacking them.

 

[Eyes of Nine]

Now hear me out...

No spell levels. Every spell can be taken at 1st level. Because they are appropriate at 1st level. And then many (all?) spells can be up-leveled.

For example Wish at 1st level might not be permanent (duration 10 minutes), might only effect self or willing targets, etc etc.

Remove the concept of "Spell Level" entirely - it's freaking confusing any way and adds no value in my opinion. It's just an artifact of older editions of D&D.

Keep Spell Slot levels - although I wouldn't call them levels, I'd call them "power" or something that is not the word level. Spell Power slots.

This might (ok, will) make spell descriptions larger. But at the same time might make some Magic cooler...?

that all said - may not be "backwards compatible"....

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Now hear me out...

No spell levels. Every spell can be taken at 1st level. Because they are appropriate at 1st level. And then many (all?) spells can be up-leveled.

For example Wish at 1st level might not be permanent (duration 10 minutes), might only effect self or willing targets, etc etc.

Remove the concept of "Spell Level" entirely - it's freaking confusing any way and adds no value in my opinion. It's just an artifact of older editions of D&D.

Keep Spell Slot levels - although I wouldn't call them levels, I'd call them "power" or something that is not the word level. Spell Power slots.

This might (ok, will) make spell descriptions larger. But at the same time might make some Magic cooler...?

that all said - may not be "backwards compatible"....

Does not work. Why would you chose to stay single classed then?
Also it might be overwhelming at first level.
Also: what is a first level wish?
I wish you would please let me through?

 

[Li Shenron]

The Hunter Ranger Subclass. Its level 10 ability lets them cast Conjure Barrage with 1st and 2nd level spell slots.

As an ability of a specific (sub)class with a specific spell, it's ok.

I'd be very wary of turning this into a general idea however.

 

[Laurefindel]

upcasting and now downcasting are difficult concepts to implement:

If lower-level spells are just as powerful as higher-level spells when upcasted, then there's nothing to look forward when gaining higher-level spells. But the higher the difference, the more quadratic casters become.

If higher-level spells are not as powerful as lower-level spells when downcast, then the whole concept becomes mostly irrelevant. But if downcast spells are still as powerful or more, casters become more quadratic.

I guess damage spells could be reworked to make a perfectly linear progression with slot levels, leaving distinct spells only affecting the spell's rider(s). I think it could still be made into a system with enough variety and enough D&D-ness. I'd have to give it more thoughts.