D&D General DM Says No Powergaming?

It will eventually die, though, unless it runs. There are enough commoners in a large town to do that. Hell, they get to shoot first every time since they are readying actions.
yes and no... like I said in last post if my black dragon attacked Monday at high noon and Wednesday at midnight then not again until the following week on Friday just at day break... the town needs to get hit, sound an alarm, raise the force and fire... that COULD best case be 3-4 rounds but in worst case be 5ish minutes before a counter attack can happen.
 

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There were laws in England dating back to at least the 13th century that required men under 40 to practice archery. They even went so far as to ban other games so that people wouldn't "waste" their leisure time on other activities. Where do you think the king got armies? It's not like they had a standing army, they wanted people to be trained for combat so they could be called upon to defend their country.
In France and Germany on the other hand, peasant rebellions were a serious concern, so feudal lords tried to prevent peasant from having access to weapon that could be used against them. I think England is the outlier here.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So they have a watchtower, with one guy keeping watch for dragons, and presumably other threats.

He sees a dragon: 3 miles away. Dragon’s speed is 80’, so at double move, it takes it 10 minutes to reach the centre of the village (As a DM, using round by round moves probably isn’t appropriate outside of combat, but whatever). The 90% of able-bodied population who is working the fields? Doesn’t have time to run home, get their longbows and assemble anywhere in 10 minutes.

Dragon is in town centre. Only 10% are close enough to home to be able to run home and grab a longbow. Of course, not all of them are brave enough to take potshots at a dragon, and of course, some may want to take extra time to ensure their families are safe, so, only 7% of the able-bodied population is armed and able to attack.

That population is spread out around the town. Partially, this reflects that people live all around the town. Partially, this reflects that bunching together is a good way to perish in flames. So at any given moment, 25% of the population doesn’t have line of sight to the dragon.

Dragon breathes fire a couple of times, sets the wooden town aflame, flies off. If particularly sadistic, takes a short rest, then flies back and kills the survivors will they are still putting out the flames on the smoldering wreckage of their town.
They will all eventually get their bows and unless the dragon runs away, they will pretty much all eventually get their shots off. The dragon will do tremendous damage to the town, but they can kill it.

The last paragraph is the dragon doing a hit and run. It's running away before they can mount an attack that can kill it. And survivors will have their weapons at hand and have people looking out for the return of the dragon, so your "sadistic" portion isn't going to be as effective as you want it to be.
 

yes and no... like I said in last post if my black dragon attacked Monday at high noon and Wednesday at midnight then not again until the following week on Friday just at day break... the town needs to get hit, sound an alarm, raise the force and fire... that COULD best case be 3-4 rounds but in worst case be 5ish minutes before a counter attack can happen.
By the third hit, there wouldn’t BE a town left. Most inhabitants would have packed up and left after the second attack.
 

There were laws in England dating back to at least the 13th century that required men under 40 to practice archery. They even went so far as to ban other games so that people wouldn't "waste" their leisure time on other activities. Where do you think the king got armies? It's not like they had a standing army, they wanted people to be trained for combat so they could be called upon to defend their country.
I often wonder both in Homebrew and in WotC setting what the standing armies really are. I mean how often do you need soldiers? do you have a career field where there are just soldiers that make there lives being combat ready? if so how many? you need to still have farmers and fishermen and hunters, and they can fill out ranks in an emergency but what %?

I love the "calling your banners" from Game of thrones/A song of ice and fire. They have it were each lord has a very small standing army and somewhere between a few hundred to maybe a thousand or two men they can call up as reserves, but each lord answers to a bigger lord who can call on that army plus there own, and those bigger lord can be called on by the crown that doesn't have it's own standing army (although I see that last part as a flaw).
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
yes and no... like I said in last post if my black dragon attacked Monday at high noon and Wednesday at midnight then not again until the following week on Friday just at day break... the town needs to get hit, sound an alarm, raise the force and fire... that COULD best case be 3-4 rounds but in worst case be 5ish minutes before a counter attack can happen.
Right. It has to hit fast and run away. Why? Because they can kill it. It has to be smart and run away, coming back later at a time when it can do the same thing. This is still problematic in that dragons should not have to use guerilla warfare to beat a town. Not a city.........a town! A dragon should just be able to show up, have its way with the town, and then leave when it wants to.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
sorry i think i must've missed a critical post in the discussion, is it the villagers or the dragon who's the one powergaming in this scenario? ;)
I think it started out a mention of how bounded accuracy handcuffs the gm with monsters incapable of rising to the challenge of challenging optimized pcs because they are all designed for an absurd thought experiment involving villagers & a dragon. From there it got stuck in (dis)proving if the selling point of bounded accuracy was working as designed (and terrible) or only a problem because of a bad gm.
 

I'm one of those who is constantly irritated with Crawford explaining the intent of rules when the text couldn't be bothered to do so, so I hear you there.

The thing with Paladins and Warlocks, however, comes down to this. Losing their powers isn't a balance point in 5e. There's no reason for it to be. Now to be sure, we more or less expect Paladins to be "good"-ish guys, but each Oath has it's own code of conduct, some of which stray from the traditional archetype.

And the thing is, there is a sidebar in the PHB that states exactly what should happen if the oath is broken. "At the DM's discretion, an impenitent paladin might be forced to abandone this class and adopt another, or perhaps to take the Oathbreaker paladin option that appears in the Dungeon Master's Guide". Not, lose access to powers. Not be turned into an ordinary Fighter. Just multiclass or become an Oathbreaker.
The bolded part really applies here IMO.

As you noted, the PHB says this about a paladin failing repeatedly at their oath:
If a paladin willfully violates his or her oath and shows no sign of repentance, the consequences can be more serious. At the DM’s discretion, an impenitent paladin might be forced to abandon this class and adopt another, or perhaps to take the Oathbreaker paladin option that appears in the Dungeon Master’s Guide.
To me, that doesn't read anywhere near as straightforward as you seem to be implying. What does abandon mean? To you it seems to mean they can't take additional levels and need to multiclass but would at least retain what they've learned so far or if allowed by the DM become an Oathbreaker . To others it could mean they lose access to their class powers, since they've abandoned their class it's reasonable to argue they've also abandoned the features of that class. Either way, the rules aren't clear at all. Want an example of clear? Here's what 2e has to say about paladin's committing evil deeds, which would be the closest equivalent to failing their oath:
If a paladin should ever knowingly and willingly perform an evil act, he loses the status of paladinhood immediately and irrevocably. All benefits are then lost and no deed or magic can restore the character to paladinhood: He is ever after a fighter. The character's level remains unchanged when this occurs and experience points are adjusted accordingly. Thereafter the character is bound by the rules for fighters. He does not gain the benefits of weapon specialization (if this is used) since he did not select this for his character at the start.
Harsh perhaps, but it's pretty clear what happens. No guess work on what happens to your exp or can you now specialize in a weapon.

If the intent was to leave the door open for loss of powers or other penalties, wouldn't they have just said so?
5e puts so much of the burden on the DM to figure out what happens because as you've noted in bold the rules often enough can't be bothered to be clear enough so we need Jeremy Crawford to tweet clarifications. I'm 100% in agreement with @Micah Sweet that errata and tweets shouldn't be used anywhere near as much as they are to cover up for half-defined rules.

And before I get the inevitable "if you don't like 5e, don't play it", I do like 5e. The mechanics are for the most part much smoother and I find play generally moves at a better pace than previous editions. I just don't like how the designers were so wishy-washy about clearly defining a lot of things. Hopefully that's something that gets addressed in OneD&D.
 

Right. It has to hit fast and run away. Why? Because they can kill it. It has to be smart and run away, coming back later at a time when it can do the same thing. This is still problematic in that dragons should not have to use guerilla warfare to beat a town. Not a city.........a town! A dragon should just be able to show up, have its way with the town, and then leave when it wants to.
I agree then. The bounded accuracy is too tightly bound.

20pt swing on ACs over 20 levels should be fine. that would in 3e/4e/5e terms mean between AC 10 and AC 30
in 2e and 1e terms that was AC 10 and -10 (with a few exceptions up to a -12)

the problem is that AC doesn't scale with level it scales with equipment for PCs and monster ACs as low as 17 or 18 can be seen at extreme levels.

Useing the SRD MM1 we have
Tarrasqu CR30 25 AC +19 to hit
Ancient Red Drag CR24 22 AC +17 to hit
Ancient Blue Drag CR 23 22 AC +16 to hit
Lich CR 21 17 AC (22 with shield) +12 to hit (with spell attacks)
Ancient Black Drag CR 21 22AC +15 to hit
Pitfiend CR20 19AC +14 to hit

so of the highest (evil) 6 monsters the BEST AC is 25 and the worst is 17... and only 1 of those (the AC19) is ONLY a CR20 the rest are higher.

IMO no monster with a CR of 20 or higher should have less then a 21 AC and by 30 we should be talking 28+ for AC.
 

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