5E: Converting Monsters from White Dwarf Magazine for Fifth Edition

[Cleon]

I've made it STR 18 and bumped CHA to 15 (that big eye....)

I was addressing that more to Ilgatto, since he fancied STR 20+ for the basic Cyclops.

 

[Casimir Liber]

ok...soooo....description then? You wanna have a crack or shall I? Also which thread to put the battleweaver...this one or the 4e conversion thread?

 

[ilgatto]

OK, since the hypnoclops/xyclops/cyclopskin is not gonna follow the way of the 1E giants when they became 2E, there's probably no point in arguing that it must have scores to match.

So, rebooting my train of thought.

Considering that regular hypnoclopses are weaker than chieftains and the original chieftains have 2E STR 18/51-75, giving the rank-and-file STR 18 would be fine.

Also, in this case, making them stronger or weaker than ogres wouldn't really matter, for I only thought of them as being stronger than ogres because of my giant connection. In this light, it probably doesn't matter much if they're gonna get more, less, or the same hit points as an ogre, wherefore CON 16 or CON 17 and giving them Hit Dice in the range of 70 hit points (as suggested by @Cleon upthread because the original has 6d8 HD) would be the way to go.

Edit: Just checked the blue write-up and scores OK as far as I'm concerned, noting that STR 19 can become STR 18 as preferred by cleon for reasons mentioned above. So what's the consensus on CHA? I suppose CHA 15 as suggested by @Casimir Liber would worsen he saving throws of creatures faced with the Hypnotic Glare?

 

[ilgatto]

So, supposing the above (gee and yay, it worked again!), let my try and get the next step right:

Cyclops
Large fey, chaotic evil
Armor Class 13 (natural armor)
Hit Points 76 (9d10 + 27)
Speed 30 ft.

STR​	DEX​	CON​	INT​	WIS​	CHA​
18 (+4)​	12 (+1)​	16 (+3)​	9 (–1)​	9 (–1)​	14 (+2)​

Comment: CHA 15 as per @Casimir Liber?

Saving Throws Stat +#
Senses passive Perception (##)
Comment: Not in favor of darkvision. Can't figure out what pP is supposed to be - I mean what the ability does, not its score.
Languages Giant, Gnoll, Goblin
Challenge # (### XP) Proficiency Bonus +2

Poor Depth Perception. The cyclops has disadvantage on any attack roll against a target more than 30 feet away.
Comment: The original has -3 to hit with missiles and -1 in melee. But I suppose we'll have to go with the 5E MM Cyclops for reasons of non-complexity?

Resist Illusions. The hypnoclops has advantage on saving throws against visual illusions.
Comment: I think "advantage" is a bit strong for a +2 bonus on saves. But I suppose "advantage" is the 5E way of dealing with such matters?

Actions

Multiattack. The hypnoclops makes two attacks; either one with its bite and one with its claws, or two with a greatclub.

Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 12 (2d6 + 4) piercing damage.

Claws. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft. one target. Hit: 12 (2d6 + 4) slashing damage.

Greatclub. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 13 (2d8 + 4) bludgeoning damage.
Reasoning: Shouldn't they be attacking with clubs and therefore greatclubs rather than morning stars? I rather see the lesser cyclopes as uncivilized brutes (Odysseus) and therefore less likely to possess sophisticated weaponry. In fact, I'd even prefer some improvised weapon rather than a specific weapon.

Hypnotic Stare. The hypnoclops’ eye glows with a twisting pattern that weaves into the mind of one creature it can see within 60 feet of it. If the target can see the hypnoclops, the target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw against this magic or be charmed for 1 minute. The charmed target is incapacitated and can’t move, take actions or reactions, or speak.
The effect ends for an affected creature if it takes any damage or if someone else uses an action to shake the creature out of its stupor. If the target's saving throw is successful, the target can thereafter no longer be hypnotized by the same hypnoclops.
Reasoning: Last sentence because the original says so.
Based this on mix Hypnotic Pattern and the 5E Ultrodaemon's Hypnotic Gaze.
Also: I don't think this should be a Bonus Action, for wouldn't that mean that it can incapacitate creatures into inaction with a "casual glance" rather than with some effort? Also, if you'd limit the stare in combination with attacks to a single opponent to prevent the casual glance, wouldn't that mean that the hypnoclops perhaps shouldn't be attacking that opponent because a hit in the same round would instantly negate the effect of the glare?
Comment: Perhaps "creature" should be something along the lines of "humanoid” to avoid the hypnoclops being able to affect dragons et al.? Also, it tends to raid humanoid settlements so maybe the stare only works vs them? Or would lead to all manner of complexities?

Bonus Actions

Aggressive: As a bonus action, the hypnoclops can move up to its speed towards a hostile creature that it can see.

Reactions

Reaction. ???.
 ???.


Description

???.
 ???.
 Subsection. ???.
 ???.

 Subsection. ???.
 ???.

(Originally created by Albie Fiore; appeared in White Dwarf Magazine #21 (Oct/Nov 1980) as part of the Fiend Factory mini-module "One-Eye Canyon", edited by Albie Fiore.)
Comment: Shouldn't this mention the original name of the creature somewhere?

 

[Cleon]

ok...soooo....description then? You wanna have a crack or shall I? Also which thread to put the battleweaver...this one or the 4e conversion thread?

We haven't finished the stats section yet though.

OK, since the hypnoclops/xyclops/cyclopskin is not gonna follow the way of the 1E giants when they became 2E, there's probably no point in arguing that it must have scores to match.

So, rebooting my train of thought.

Considering that regular hypnoclopses are weaker than chieftains and the original chieftains have 2E STR 18/51-75, giving the rank-and-file STR 18 would be fine.

Also, in this case, making them stronger or weaker than ogres wouldn't really matter, for I only thought of them as being stronger than ogres because of my giant connection. In this light, it probably doesn't matter much if they're gonna get more, less, or the same hit points as an ogre, wherefore CON 16 or CON 17 and giving them Hit Dice in the range of 70 hit points (as suggested by @Cleon upthread because the original has 6d8 HD) would be the way to go.

We appear to have settled on 76 hit points, but the dispute is whether that's from 9 or 8 Hit Dice.

Casimir appears to prefer CON 18 for Hit Points 76 (8d10 + 32) going by his latest draft, but I prefer Hit Points 76 (9d10 + 27) which'd require CON 16 or 17.

Edit: Just checked the blue write-up and scores OK as far as I'm concerned, noting that STR 19 can become STR 18 as preferred by cleon for reasons mentioned above. So what's the consensus on CHA? I suppose CHA 15 as suggested by @Casimir Liber would worsen he saving throws of creatures faced with the Hypnotic Glare?

STR 18 works fine for me (I prefer it over the STR 19 in Casimir's earlier draft).

As for Charisma, I like CHA 14 a bit better than 15, although that'd mean we wand an odd number in CON (i.e. 17) or DEX (i.e. 11 or 13) if we're giving it the standard three odd and three even ability scores.

Of those, DEX 13 like a Troll and CON 16 like an Ogre is tempting, but I'd be equally happy making it DEX 12 & CON 17 or DEX 11 & CON 16.

Also would be fine making it a bit smarter with INT 11 (+0), WIS 11 (+0), or both. The original did not specify how intelligent cyclopes are, so they could be as clever as humans or dwarves for all we know, or even a bit smarter or more observant. Although if they were a lot more cunning and insightful than an average person, or far stupider, one would hope it'd be mentioned in their description.

 

[Cleon]

Comment: Not in favor of darkvision. Can't figure out what pP is supposed to be - I mean what the ability does, not its score.

passive Perception is simply 10 plus the creature's Perception, so 9 if it only has the –1 modifier of its Wisdom.

It's what you roll against in 5E when trying to sneak past someone (or something) that isn't using an Action to look/see/hear/etc around itself but is just paying casual attention to its surroundings.

Reasoning: Shouldn't they be attacking with clubs and therefore greatclubs rather than morning stars? I rather see the lesser cyclopes as uncivilized brutes (Odysseus) and therefore less likely to possess sophisticated weaponry. In fact, I'd even prefer some improvised weapon rather than a specific weapon.

Well personally I'd only give it a Bite and two Claw attacks for melee weapons, like the original.

I'd be quite happy to give the "Chieftain" an artificial melee weapon to reflect its greater cunning and as a sign of its status?

If the regular Hypno-clops has such a melee weapon, it doesn't make much difference to me whether it's a Morningstar or a Greatclub, although like you I prefer Greatclub as it's what Ogres and Hill Giants use.

Although I'm thinking it ought to have a ranged weapon. What's the point of its Poor Depth Perception trait if it never chucks something deadly at an opponent? Either a Javelin like an Ogre uses for ranged attacks in later editions of D&D, or the sophisticated implement called "A Big Rock" preferred by a Hill Giant.

Oh, I'm starting to wonder if Poor Depth Perception should have a shorter range than 30 feet.

If it threw javelins, for example, those have range 30/120 so the cyclops would get disadvantage on its attack rolls beyond 30 feet anyway, since that's the limit of a javelin's accurate range.

If we made the limit 10 feet, then basically all its ranged attacks would likely have disadvantage and if it's target was only within melee range of a weapon with the reach property like a halberd, glaive, pike.

Hmm, maybe we could give the Chieftain a reach weapon like one of the above?

Reasoning: Last sentence because the original says so.
Based this on mix Hypnotic Pattern and the 5E Ultrodaemon's Hypnotic Gaze.

I prefer Glare over Stare as that's the word a Mummy fear-inflicting glower uses.

For the "If the target's saving throw is successful, the target can thereafter no longer be hypnotized by the same hypnoclops", I would recommend using the standard 5E solution for such attacks: have a target that saves become immune to that creature's attack for 24 hours.

As in "A target that successfully saves is immune to this cyclops’s glare for the next 24 hours."

Also: I don't think this should be a Bonus Action, for wouldn't that mean that it can incapacitate creatures into inaction with a "casual glance" rather than with some effort? Also, if you'd limit the stare in combination with attacks to a single opponent to prevent the casual glance, wouldn't that mean that the hypnoclops perhaps shouldn't be attacking that opponent because a hit in the same round would instantly negate the effect of the glare?

I think it'd work better if cyclopes could glare and melee attack in the same round. There's no rule that they must Hypnotic Glare at the same target as their melee attacks.

Comment: Perhaps "creature" should be something along the lines of "humanoid” to avoid the hypnoclops being able to affect dragons et al.? Also, it tends to raid humanoid settlements so maybe the stare only works vs them? Or would lead to all manner of complexities?

The original text said it affects one target just like the spell hypnotic pattern, which can affect any creature able to see it, so I wouldn't restrict it to humanoids.

That said, I would require that the target can see the cyclops.

Comment: Shouldn't this mention the original name of the creature somewhere?

Still think we need to make its name "Something Cyclops" but we just need to agree on that something!

I think we've had Amiraspi, Amiraspian, Cave, Hypnotic and Eldritch proposed so far, but none of them won everyone's favour.

 

[Cleon]

This is getting complicated.

I'm going to update the Cyclops with some proposed changes marked in blue, points we appear to be in agreement on marked in green and everything else in the default text colour or marked in red (depending on what's easier).

 

[Casimir Liber]

ok I've made it 9d10+27 wih 16 CON - I have no strong preference so have changed to yours

changed morningstar to greatclub

rock is more what I imagine than a javelin.

"Cave cyclops" problematic as canon cyclops live in caves. To me "Eldritch" suggests something like eldritch knight ..with significan magical abilities and power...which this isn't. i dunno...I need to sleep

 

[ilgatto]

OK. For reasons mentioned upthread, I vote for the following stats for the regular xcyclops:

STR 18
DEX 12
CON 17 (and hence 9d10+27 HD)
INT 10
WIS 9
CHA 14

As for Charisma, I like CHA 14 a bit better than 15, although that'd mean we wand an odd number in CON (i.e. 17) or DEX (i.e. 11 or 13) if we're giving it the standard three odd and three even ability scores.

Come a-flaming-gain?! Is an odd-and-even ratio for scores a rule in 5E? Whatever for?

Of those, DEX 13 like a Troll and CON 16 like an Ogre is tempting, but I'd be equally happy making it DEX 12 & CON 17 or DEX 11 & CON 16.

Also would be fine making it a bit smarter with INT 11 (+0), WIS 11 (+0), or both. The original did not specify how intelligent cyclopes are, so they could be as clever as humans or dwarves for all we know, or even a bit smarter or more observant. Although if they were a lot more cunning and insightful than an average person, or far stupider, one would hope it'd be mentioned in their description.

Well, that messes up my vote and complicates things considerably.

S-o-o-o-o, in that case, I am strongly in favor of STR 18 and CON 17 in any case, for 1 even score and 1 odd.

Then, I'd say that I'd go for a higher INT than WIS, wherefore INT 11 or INT 10 in combination with WIS 10 or WIS 9, respectively. Either way, the odd-vs-even score would then be 2-2.

As to DEX and CHA, I'd be in favor of a relatively low DEX because one eye. So DEX 12 and CHA 15?

So is my vote gonna be for:

STR 18
DEX 12 or 11
CON 17 (and 9d10+27 HD)
INT 11
WIS 10
CHA 15 or 14?

Hmm..., although I had kind of gotten used to CHA 14, I guess I don't really care if it's gonna be CHA 15 as per @Casimir Liber if that's means worse saves vs the hypnostare. Since we seem to agree that DEX isn't gonna be lower than 11, I guess that would mean DEX 12 for me because of the odd-and-even rule.

Ya ya-a-aysus...!

Back to basics.

Since my reboot, and without taking into account any of the above, I'd prefer this, mainly because I still think of xclopi being ogrish/giantish in stats rather than trollish.

STR 18
DEX 10
CON 17 (and therefore 9d10+27 HD)
INT 10
and therefore WIS 9...

... which would make it CHA 15 because of the odd-and-even rule.

But I suppose this only adds to the confusion because that opens up a whole new chapter for DEX?

 

[ilgatto]

Deleted. Pressed "Save" by mistake.