D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[Neonchameleon]

You are not losing "a lot" of damage. In fact, the weapon you choose has the same or greater impact on your damage than that +1.

Not even close. That +1 isn't just a +1 to damage (and there are very few comparable weapons where the damage is that different). It's +1 to hit as well - and that alone is worth almost 10% of your damage. It's also +1 damage per attack. With most attacks doing damage in the low teens unless you have a seriously funky magic weapon. You're about 20% less effective at the team game with a +1 bonus, and about 40% with a +2

ASI complaints ignored: all the cool racial feats, and the ability to get to dive deeper into a culture you want to explore as a player.

Which are entirely independent of ASI. And what "cool racial feats"?

Also, you get additional points in a skill that rounds out your character better.

1 point in up to about 4 skills you use once per session vs 1 point in something you use multiple times per round when your life is on the line.

And, you get to choose skills that help show the culture you're trying to roleplay.

You can pick proficient skills regardless of your bonuses. You just aren't 20-40% weaker when your life is on the line because of it.

Just once... just once... I would like to see a complaint that didn't involve someone wanting something that made their character stronger. But that never happens.

I've actually complained about the warlock getting two bonus known spells per spell level in OneD&D despite the fact that it makes the characters strictly stronger. It also makes them faffier with more pieces of paper to juggle. And I don't want that.

Almost every change is an increase in power, which is why people that complain are often called powergamers or min/maxers.

Frequently by people who want the rest of the party to carry them in combat when lives are on the line.

Imagine the outcry if this happened: All cantrips should only do 1d4 damage, this way martial classes always do more damage - you know, since that's what they specialize in. The spellcasters have other things like fly and invisibility that makes them equal in the long run.

I'll drink to that!

Have you ever seen that? Probably not. The reason is the people that complain are boxed in by needing that extra +1, or needing to be able to do the best damage, have the best AC, technically, to be great at all pillars. For them, being ok at a pillar is not enough. For them, for reasons I can't understand, it ruins their immersion.

The key thing is that if it's a choice between survival and luxuries almost everyone will choose survival. Combat is survival and everyone needs to help and carry their weight because their lives are at stake. Social skills are comparative luxuries and not such a direct team thing; only the face character in the party actually needs to lead on them. This isn't to say that others shouldn't help but the lead can handle the life or death situations.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I want a non-slot elementalist.

As in no spell slots? If so...okay that was never on the table for the monk anyway.

I'm okay with a monk subclass that can attack at range with elements, AOE with elements, move with elements, and maybe create elemental constructs (walls, cover, armor, weapons)

Yeah you need all those things for sure.

I'd add elemental states where your stuff with the same element gets more powerful and you gain some passive benefit.

 

[FrogReaver]

You're missing the math.

It's not the +2 to damage rolls.
It's the +2 to attack rolls.
If I went with a 13 Str, roll a 15, and miss.. I know it. I know I missed because I didn't have 16 STR. I know I didn't deal damage.

And you know what else I know. That the 16 Cha I took that dropped by STR to 13 is doing jack squat. It's not dealing damage. It's not preventing damage.

But a wizard's INT? Helps in combat. Helps in social. Helps in exploration.
"Oh your DM can let you perform actions that use Cha in combat."
On this very forum, I've had posters in stat they don't want additional combat options that use mental scores. People saying Intelligence and Charisma shouldn't affect combat unless you use magic.

1e and 2e reduced the importance of scores for a reason. It you are going to use 3e ability scores, you need to have either:

1) a core Feint action with INT, a Goad action with CHA, a Distract action with CHA, a Parry action with INT
OR
2) a warrior class that uses INT, WIS, and CH

I don't understand the concept of 'we can fix all the martials issues by making them more MAD!' Doubly so when you consider that casters will be better at those maneuvers - a core Feint action with INT, a Goad action with CHA, a Distract action with CHA, a Parry action with INT

 

[Minigiant]

I don't understand the concept of 'we can fix all the martials issues by making them more MAD!

The goal is to make every class MAD.
A Knight Fighter should be STR/CHA and a Evoker Wizard should be INT/CHA.

Doubly so when you consider that casters will be better at those maneuvers - a core Feint action with INT, a Goad action with CHA, a Distract action with CHA, a Parry action with INT

Casters only have 1 attack and only have simple weapons.
They can't Feint and Strike. Can't Distract and Stun.

 

[RainOnTheSun]

I honestly think the effort to make every class as SAD as possible has worked to D&D's detriment. Characters become so much more samey.

 

[Scribe]

I honestly think the effort to make every class as SAD as possible has worked to D&D's detriment. Characters become so much more samey.

Yeah, it's fairly abysmal. Especially in 5th with how dire the math is. "SEE if I had 16..." that's the depth of it.

 

[payn]

The goal is to make every class MAD.

YES!

 

[Tony Vargas]

Sounds like part of whats going on with SAD vs MAD is the age-old issue of the stats not being created equal. CON, DEX & WIS govern more common saves. CHA, INT, DEX, and WIS add to multiple important checks. STR and DEX can add to hit and damage with weapons, simply by weapon choice. DEX adds to AC and initiative. CON adds to hp.

 

[FrogReaver]

The goal is to make every class MAD.
A Knight Fighter should be STR/CHA and a Evoker Wizard should be INT/CHA.


Casters only have 1 attack and only have simple weapons.
They can't Feint and Strike. Can't Distract and Stun.

When you figure out what a wizard does with Str let me know.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It was entirely a joke, yes. Not about denying global warming, at all, and I can't see how it could be, but I know I am not the best at reading & understanding people, so NP - different joke! If it's not acceptable, I'll take it down, entirely. I want to be amusing, not insulting.

Mod Note:

I understand why you did it, but remember, responding to moderation in thread is generally forbidden. Don’t make a habit of it.