WotC Third party, DNDBeyond and potential bad side effects.

[bedir than]

The anti competitive element would be in WoTC doing this thing.

This is the first time in my life I've heard an API called anti-competitive.

Is the Weather Channel anti-competitive?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

That may be good for WOTC but it’s not good for us players and GMs who love 5e.

I love 5e. I also like A5e.
I understand your issues. I would probably play more A5e if it was on dndbeyond.

 

[mamba]

Folks I think people are thinking about this API business wrong. If WoTC released a web service and documentation to allow a third party to authenticate and account and sub tier on D&DBeyond and then pull character data and other data into some format (say xml) that could be easily imported into third party VTT it is not WoTC that suffers it is Roll20 and FantasyGrounds that are selling this service.

that is what I said, it helps DDB

The anti competitive element would be in WoTC doing this thing.

this is not anti-competitive, even if it affects sales on Roll20 and FG. It opens up the access to data however, esp. for all the other VTTs that do not have these modules on their own platform

If you want to avoid DDB getting a benefit from this, the modules would need to be sold in an open format any VTT can use, and exported / made available as such, to allow import into another VTT. This to me is a much harder sale, even though I would prefer it.

 

[mamba]

Building, maintaining and securing an API can be expensive. It is not a simple task and their tech department may simply be too busy making changes for the 2024 edition to deal with it.

no one said they need to make it available in a week or two

I don't know what they're thinking or planning. But there is no reason to believe an API would be profitable. There's also no reason to believe there is any business case for them to do it. They don't need to do it just because it would be useful for other companies.

I explained the business case, having an API that others support is its own value. Wider support for the products you sell make your products more valuable, this is not just for the benefits of the competition, it mostly benefits WotC’s customers and by extension WotC itself

 

[mamba]

My main point is that WOTC is not creating a walled garden; they are not restricting or making it more difficult for people to get someone else's product.

DDB is a walled garden, that you can get what is sold in it in other ways too does not change that

 

[UngainlyTitan]

This is the first time in my life I've heard an API called anti-competitive.

Is the Weather Channel anti-competitive?

they are if their existence kills the business model of potential competitors. In software an API generally build out some foundational stuff that can be used to build more stuff that has value and is saleable.
So, a data API brokers low level connection to a database and provides readymade data structures to navigate the stored data. That saves a developer the time and effort of creating their own. A game engine (Unity or Unreal) builds out something very complex to develop and allows a small team to build some fairly sophisticated games on top of it.
The putative D&DBeyond API is opening out the information and automation engine within D&DBeyond to third parties. Smiteworks and Roll20 derive some revenue from exactly this. They bundle the information in the D&D books and add automation and sell that on to the end users. This source of value added is now killed by that API.
In fact, that is what Beyond20 does to Roll20. It takes D&Dbeyond's information and automation, serves tehm out to Roll20 and one can use the free Roll20 as a map handler.
So, the question for VTT builders becomes how do I make some money to my application? This is actually a pertinent question right now with the D&DBeyond maps applet.
Right now, the only thing preventing the D&DBeyond map tool from becoming a lightweight no frills VTT for any game is that the monsters are linked to the D&DBeyond monster database, and the characters are linked to D&DBeyond character sheets.
Provide the ability to curate a custom token collection and it can be used for any game. Provide a system agnostic turn(initiative) tracker and it works as a bare bones VTT for any system.
Add in a robust campaign management tool - which amounts to hyperlinked text files: a modified blog system could do it - and some threaded messaging or discord support and you can run anything within D&DBeyond.

 

[Umbran]

The anti competitive element would be in WoTC doing this thing.

This is like saying that Amazon, which has its own tablet/e-reader line, is anti-competitive for also having an app to access Amazon content on other tablets. Like, if I can buy a Samsung tablet, and read both Amazon and Barnes & Noble content on it, that's "anti-competitive"?

Having that API means that the end user is free to use their information on whatever platform they want. That opens up the market to others, rather than closing it off.

 

[Oofta]

no one said they need to make it available in a week or two


I explained the business case, having an API that others support is its own value. Wider support for the products you sell make your products more valuable, this is not just for the benefits of the competition, it mostly benefits WotC’s customers and by extension WotC itself

I think it would be great if DDB had an open API. However there are a lot of issues with APIs and implementing one can require a lot of short and long term investment. If you've never been involved in the development of an API you may not realize how steep those costs can be. So I stop short of claiming that there is a business case for it or that they "should". We just don't know.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

that is what I said, it helps DDB

Agreed

this is not anti-competitive, even if it affects sales on Roll20 and FG. It opens up the access to data however, esp. for all the other VTTs that do not have these modules on their own platform

I will quibble over this. It may not be anti competitive in the legal (competition and monopiles) sense, but it has very strong network effects. Sort of like YouTube, or Facebook or Google in search. Or Steam in games. You are also killing secondary sales channels like FG and Roll20 or at least greatly reducing their revenue and thus their ability to compete.

If you want to avoid DDB getting a benefit from this, the modules would need to be sold in an open format any VTT can use, and exported / made available as such, to allow import into another VTT. This to me is a much harder sale, even though I would prefer it.

Aside from the fact that these putative modules will be bought from D&DBeyond there is no way I can see them allowing any local storage in any open format. The Hasbro ip management people would have a fit. It is going to be accessed live from D&DBeyond servers to an authenticated user or encrypted locally with the decrypt management via themselves or a trusted third party.

 

[Velderan]

I realize we're in the early stages of this and as usual, WotC isn't communicating their intent so there's lots we don't know. I will happily retract that statement if someone can point me to a statement they've released that sheds some light on what they're planning. I suspect at this point it's mostly just them testing the waters with the products they've selected so far and who knows how many people they've reached out to. I'd be interested to know if anyone they approached actually said no and if so, why.

That being said, my issue so far is there's no insight into how the folks that have gotten their stuff published on there were chosen or what a path forward looks like for other publishers to be able to work with the DDB team to get their stuff published there. I'd like to see them publish a set of guidelines (which probably would just be their own content guidelines that Kyle Brink talked about during his apology tour earlier this year) and then provide a means for interested publishers to reach out to them to request their product be considered. I could see them saying no to competing rulesets to avoid confusion (so no ToV or Level Up core material) but what about the rest of Kobold Presses material? Would they consider publishing Paizo's upcoming 5e conversion of the Abomination Vaults AP or the Kingmaker AP 5e material? At this point, we don't know and it would be good to know what their plans are as stewards of the D&D brand. Just my 2 cents.