D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[Stalker0]

I do think this is a scenario where the actuals are different than the theocraticals.

On paper, I 100% agree dex is an overpowered stat, and dex fighters get almost everything str fighters do plus a lot more. But in practice I have plenty of players who will do strength builds, because of the roleplay, because its fun, whatever.

Same with melee vs ranged builds. Again on paper there is very little reason not to use ranged most of the time, but in practice I see plenty of melee characters. Players find them fun, its as simple as that.

 

[mellored]

Str has

• grapple
• Higher damage
• Higher AC
• Graze, Topple, Push, Cleave, Sap, Slow. *Can still use any finesse weapon (Vex, Nick)

Dex has

• Initiative
• Better save
• Longer range

Overall, seems pretty balanced.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Str has

• grapple
• Higher damage
• Higher AC
• Graze, Topple, Push, Cleave, Sap, Slow. *Can still use any finesse weapon (Vex, Nick)

Dex has

• Initiative
• Better save
• Longer range

Overall, seems pretty balanced.

Tried that. Dex promoters don't believe in this list.

 

[tetrasodium]

Str has

• grapple
• Higher damage
• Higher AC
• Graze, Topple, Push, Cleave, Sap, Slow. *Can still use any finesse weapon (Vex, Nick)

Dex has

• Initiative
• Better save
• Longer range

Overall, seems pretty balanced.

Expand the white room. Grapple is used even less than it was in 3.x because it's not needed to lock things down due to everyone being crunchy enough to not care and because monsters are so ineffective that PCs don't feel they really need the potential benefits downstream of the initial grapple like a pin or whatever. Beyond that, the ac spread is fairly narrow and all things considered both are more than good enough.

 

[mellored]

Expand the white room. Grapple is used even less than it was in 3.x because it's not needed to lock things down due to everyone being crunchy enough to not care and because monsters are so ineffective that PCs don't feel they really need the potential benefits downstream of the initial grapple like a pin or whatever. Beyond that, the ac spread is fairly narrow and all things considered both are more than good enough.

Grapple let's you move enemies, every turn, until they spend an action to maybe escape. (High chance but still a roll).

Combine with a zone such as cloud of daggers or spiked growth.
Grapples, drags out and back in for 4d4 damage, which is more than a d8+5.
And they can just do it again next turn unless you spend an action, plus the 4d4 from starting their turn there.

And that scales very well, since grapple is 1 attack, and the zone damage will be higher.

It's either huge damage or a stun. Very useful.

Push mastery will do similar. Shove then out, run around, and push them back in.


AC spread is narrow, but still an advantage.

 

[Vikingkingq]

Grapple let's you move enemies, every turn, until they spend an action to maybe escape. (High chance but still a roll).

Combine with a zone such as cloud of daggers or spiked growth.
Grapples, drags out and back in for 4d4 damage, which is more than a d8+5.
And they can just do it again next turn unless you spend an action, plus the 4d4 from starting their turn there.

And that scales very well, since grapple is 1 attack, and the zone damage will be higher.

It's either huge damage or a stun. Very useful.

Push mastery will do similar. Shove then out, run around, and push them back in.


AC spread is narrow, but still an advantage.

I'm a huge fan of the woodchipper strategy, but I don't think the Rogue is particularly well-suited to carry it out compared to Monks or Barbarians or Fighters.

 

[mellored]

I'm a huge fan of the woodchipper strategy, but I don't think the Rogue is particularly well-suited to carry it out compared to Monks or Barbarians or Fighters.

Str rogue with bonus action dash isn't the worst. Though dipping monk 2 gives you that.

Rogues are best using expertise in stealth to scout and then poison the enemy archer.

 

[Yaarel]

Str has

• grapple
• Higher damage
• Higher AC
• Graze, Topple, Push, Cleave, Sap, Slow. *Can still use any finesse weapon (Vex, Nick)

Dex has

• Initiative
• Better save
• Longer range

Overall, seems pretty balanced.

I would prefer to see Dexterity removed entirely from Unarmed Strike.

However, the Monk class feature would continue to substitute Dexterity instead of Strength.

 

[mellored]

I would prefer to see Dexterity removed entirely from Unarmed Strike.

However, the Monk class feature would continue to substitute Dexterity instead of Strength.

Unarmed attacks never used Dex, except for the monk.

 

[Vikingkingq]

Str rogue with bonus action dash isn't the worst. Though dipping monk 2 gives you that.

Rogues are best using expertise in stealth to scout and then poison the enemy archer.

They're not the worst, but they're pretty mid-tier I would say.

And I think the dip argument works the other way as well, no? Dipping one into Rogue makes you just as good a scout if you need to handle the enemy archer.