D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[ECMO3]

At lower levels probably.

I believe it is going to be that way at more levels than any other class in most campaigns. I think in almost all games the better martial builds are going to outdamage the non-martial builds at most levels (maybe all levels).

One thing that really hurts the CME whiteroom theorycrafters are the action economy, number of hit points enemies have and the number of high level spell slots the casters have. Being able to do damage is not the same as doing damage. 400 attacks that do 1 hit point damage each are going to result in a lot more damage taken by enemies than 1 attack that does 400hp damage.

Being able to do 400 damage on round 2 is not a big deal if the battle is over before you get your turn or the enemy only has 40 hit points left by the time you get to cash it in.

Sure CME might be able to one shot an ancient Dragon in the second round of combat sometimes if things go right, or perhaps even the first, but that does not equate to doing the most damage in a campaign or even in an adventuring day.

 

[Zardnaar]

I believe it is going to be that way at more levels than any other class in most campaigns,

One thing that really hurts the CME whiteroom theorycrafters are the action economy, number of hit points enemies have and the number of high level spell slots the casters have. I think in almost all games the better martial builds are going to outdamage the non-martial builds.

Being able to do 350 damage on round 2 is not a big deal if the battle is over before you get your turn or the enemy only has 40 hit points left by the time you get to cash it in.

Sure CME might be able to one shot an ancient Dragon in the second round of combat sometimes under the right circumstances, but that does not equate to doing the most damage in a campaign or even in an adventuring day.

It's also concentration based. Haven't seen to many appealing builds playable from level 1.

Pure wizard+Scorching ray+CME could be useful but they can't buff accuracy like sorcerers and they can't transmute Scorching Ray to not fire.

 

[ECMO3]

Cast simulacrum on a rogue.
You now deal more damage than the rogue.

Only after the Rogue agrees to stand next to you for 12 hours ..... which she won't do if you are competing with her.

Also when talking about Simulacrum, keep in mind it is an illusion and anything that mitigates the effects of illusions will work against a Simulacrum.

 

[mellored]

Only after the Rogue agrees to stand next to you for 12 hours ..... which she won't do if you are competing with her.

Then cast Mass Suggestions first.

Also when talking about Simulacrum, keep in mind it is an illusion and anything that mitigates the effects of illusions will work against a Simulacrum.

It's an illusion that can deal 10d6 sneak attack damage every round, then reliably hide.

 

[FrogReaver]

@Zardnaar

I assume we are talking single target damage here? I also assume magic items aren't being factored in?

 

[ECMO3]

Then cast Mass Suggestions first.

It's an illusion that can deal 10d6 sneak attack damage every round, then reliably hide.

Yeah a Rogue is going to have most of its capability as long as no one casts dispel magic on it, but it won't be able to use cunning strike or anything else that requires a save against an enemy with truesight.

Mass Suggestion will not work. The Rogue has proficiency against that save, and even if he fails it, he can take 20 on it and there is a good chance at that level he has Mage Slayer feat too, giving him a legendary resistance as well. You will need at least 3 slots (and 3 rounds) to land mass suggestion on a 20th level Rogue, and probably more like 5. If it is as easy to hide as you think he will be doing that 10d6 to YOU every one of those rounds ..... scratch that, he will do 4d6 and knock you unconscious instead.

Which brings me to my last point: A Rogue will not be able to reliably hide at 20th level without some other sort of gear. Successful hiding now causes the Invisible condition but many (most?) of the enemies you face will have blindsight or truesight at this level and will cancel this condition. He always can use steady aim though.

 

[Zardnaar]

@Zardnaar

I assume we are talking single target damage here? I also assume magic items aren't being factored in?

Not to fussed about basic magic items + 1 wand, weapon etc.

Mostly dingle target I suppose as you can crunch the math. In a real game chromatic orb and Fireball would fill in the gaps.

Can they do it and by what level? Ignoring CME already know that wins at higher level (14-17) in a white room.

 

[FrogReaver]

By level 3
I don't think there's any full caster that can keep up with damage focused Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers or Battlemaster Fighters in terms of single target damage. A warlock utilizing their super familiar might exceed them. A war cleric might could get close to them.

By level 5
Martials like Barbarians consistently can hit for 30+ DPR. Paladins should be similar. I don't think there's any caster that can do that kind of single target damage at that level.

That said, techniques like reaction moving with Spirit Guardians, upcast Moonbeam vs immobilized foes both give respectable single target damage while also being able to deal AOE damage. Though there is definitely a damage caster running out of gas issue at this level compared to the martials.

By level 7
Martials increase their DPR ever so slightly. Casters get access to additional techniques like upcast summon fey, coupled with their best at will cantrip/attack. There's alot more spell slot gas by this level and the previous techniques just work that much better in the higher level slots.

By level 9
Most martials haven't gotten very much additional offensive power by this point. I think at this point full casters tend to start outperforming martials at single target damage if they wish.

At level 11
Martials mostly have 1 last large push toward increasing their damage before extremely high levels. Casters are probably ever so slightly behind this for single target damage.

That said, good magic weapons, can really push things into martials favor throughout the whole level range.

And then there's also some of the 'questionable' spells/spell combos like CME+Scorching Ray (CME an obviously unbalanced spell0, or Magic Missile and Evocation Wizard's level 10 ability making the int damage bonus apply to all missiles (not a clear cut interpretation), etc.

Point being, there's going to be alot of variability in actual play when it comes to damage.

The other thing I'd suggest is that casters vs a single target, they don't really need to damage, they just need to use appropriate low level control spells. Couple that with good aoe damage/control abilities and casters are very good, even if martial single target damage might be a bit higher.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Even at high levels, I don't like factoring upcast CME into damage calculations: feels too obviously broken.
At those levels its mostly unnecessary.

I'd be interested to know how a slightly more sustainable strategy, such as maintaining a damaging spell and then using cantrips/lower level spells stacks up.

If the day goes on long enough, I guess the fighter that can swing every round over running out of spells and then just cantrip will will- eventually.

The fighter will generally be well out of their own resources (hit points and hit dice) before then.

There might also be something to just fighting a single monster over than mobs of mooks.

I think most of the OP calculation was based on single target. No one is suggesting that casters don't blow martials out of the water when it comes to damaging mobs of mooks.

The highest damage casters are Paladins who are also martials.

At lower levels perhaps. Are these "martials" casting spells to achieve their high damage?

 

[FrogReaver]

Even at high levels, I don't like factoring upcast CME into damage calculations: feels too obviously broken.
At those levels its mostly unnecessary.

I'd be interested to know how a slightly more sustainable strategy, such as maintaining a damaging spell and then using cantrips/lower level spells stacks up.

The fighter will generally be well out of their own resources (hit points and hit dice) before then.

I think most of the OP calculation was based on single target. No one is suggesting that casters don't blow martials out of the water when it comes to damaging mobs of mooks.

At lower levels perhaps. Are these "martials" casting spells to achieve their high damage?

There's also the melee vs ranged issue. How much damage is lost by having to close into melee or use less effective thrown weapons.