D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[TwoSix]

Yes, but that narrative is a game design nightmare. If the caster can get significant power with preparation, you cannot expect the class to be balanced for the prepared, and unprepared state at the same time.

I know! Which is why this is pretty much a unsolvable problem for D&D as a whole, because a committed portion of the player base wants that narrative.

 

[tetrasodium]

"consistently" carries a lot of weight in how it's defined. If you use an definition like "a good 3 out of 5 rounds and omit edge cases like high roll across from low roll across most random stretches of 5 rounds across an adventure or campaign" then the answer is "probably if the spellcaster is a warlock

 

[mellored]

You're also a 13+ level caster,

Yea. Again, i don't think they are overpowered until 11 or so

taking 12 hours to cast the spell.
This is becoming a "if Batman has time to prepare..." argument.

Get a cart and do it while traveling.
Wizards shouldn't be able to get 90% of a martial, ever.
Including that "transform into a fighter" spell from earlier editions.

Also, Wall of Force doesn't take time to prepare.
Nor does Mass Suggestion (which really needs concentration).

 

[Umbran]

I know! Which is why this is pretty much a unsolvable problem for D&D as a whole, because a committed portion of the player base wants that narrative.

So, the real question is whether that portion of the player base wants the narrative that this is exclusive to them.

Like, if given time a fighter could bank expertise dice, or something, so that they also get a power boost with preparation, then the problem becomes less of an issue. You just rebalance the entire game around having a prepped and unprepped state.

 

[mellored]

I know! Which is why this is pretty much a unsolvable problem for D&D as a whole, because a committed portion of the player base wants that narrative.

The divide was intended since the original edition.

Wizards where supposed to start weak and end strong, each class having their own scaling and max level, balanced over a full campaign.

3e made it worse, as they unified the levels but kept the spell scaling by class level.

5e softened that curve a lot, 5.24 a bit more so (mainly buffing martials), but it's still baked into the spell slot progression. Stating with 3 big things per day, ending with 24 bigger things per day.

 

[TwoSix]

The divide was intended since the original edition.

Wizards where supposed to start weak and end strong, each class having their own scaling and max level, balanced over a full campaign.

3e made it worse, as they unified the levels but kept the spell scaling by class level.

5e softened that curve a lot, 5.24 a bit more so (mainly buffing martials), but it's still baked into the spell slot progression. Stating with 3 big things per day, ending with 24 bigger things per day.

It's pretty orthogonal to the weak->strong growth progression.

Trope-wise, casters are the ones who make dungeons, trapped towers, and summon guardians to protect them. Those things take time and resources. By spending time and resources, casters (especially wizards) become stronger.

Warriors are the ones who come in and smash the traps and defeat the guardians.

Works great as a narrative trope, not as good in a game where the delta between warriors and casters is supposed to be small, but casters can still do strengthen themselves during downtime.

 

[mellored]

So, the real question is whether that portion of the player base wants the narrative that this is exclusive to them.

Like, if given time a fighter could bank expertise dice, or something, so that they also get a power boost with preparation, then the problem becomes less of an issue. You just rebalance the entire game around having a prepped and unprepped state.

I don't think barbarian players want to spend 12 hours preparing.

 

[mellored]

It's pretty orthogonal to the weak->strong growth progression.

Maybe now.

But original D&D came from wargames, not comics.

If you ever played axis and allies, Germany (fighter) starts off with the most units, while American (wizards) has the least but can scale better.

And that legacy still influences things (spell slot progression).


If you want to do the preparation thing, then there should be a cantrip that lets you see around corners. And metoer swarm should take an hour to cast.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Nor does Mass Suggestion (which really needs concentration).

No. It needs to go back to being a reasonable suggestion. It used to bw a charm person+.
Not only can you influence them more easily, but you can suggest a reasonable course of action.

"Stop fighting, and lets talk this out and get to an agreement" is reasonable.

"Come here, hand over all your magic items and go as far to the north until you are tired" is not.

And this is still a harmless suggestion for the 2024 wording.

"Get a rope, bind it on a branch, tie a loop, put it around your neck and lift your legs" or something along the line is also achievable and does no damage.

 

[mellored]

No. It needs to go back to being a reasonable suggestion. It used to bw a charm person+.
Not only can you influence them more easily, but you can suggest a reasonable course of action.

"Stop fighting, and lets talk this out and get to an agreement" is reasonable.

Which effectively incapacitated them while you kill off the ones that saved.

"Come here, hand over all your magic items and go as far to the north until you are tired" is not.

What about "Follow us and make ranged attacks against your boss." ?