Huh, I always thought of constructs as techno-magic moreso than raw magic. Or does construct mean Golem like a stone golem(I see that as more magic than the term construct)
I'm just curious as to the distinction if there is one.
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Huh, I always thought of constructs as techno-magic moreso than raw magic. Or does construct mean Golem like a stone golem(I see that as more magic than the term construct)
I'm just curious as to the distinction if there is one.
Arkhandus
First Post
Constructs are usually HIGHLY magical. Golems are so extremely magical that most other magic can't even work on them. Otherwise, Fireballs could still melt golems of any sort the same as anything else, and Disintegrate spells could obliterate them the same as anything else.
Although iron golems and a few others are given a partially-mechanical look in 3.X books, they're still extremely magical and powered by magic. And golems are all animated by bound Earth elementals, or Water elementals in the case of Nimblewrights but they're in Monster Manual II, not the SRD. Magic is usually described as a requirement in their creation, through rituals and transmutations of material. And constructs typically require some high-level arcane and divine spells to create, like Animate Objects, Limited Wish, Resurrection, Antimagic Field, etc. Even Shield Guardians can't be created without at least 15 levels of wizard or 16 levels of sorcerer as well as 3 levels of cleric, just to meet the spell prerequisites, in addition to the three item prerequisites (Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms & Armor are prerequisites for Craft Construct).
Homonculi are made through ritual and an infusion of the caster's blood and such, though they can be made by mid-level arcane casters with the right feats and spells. Animated Objects are, of course, simply made through the Animate Objects spell (which is divine) and maybe an arcane Permanency or maybe a Miracle emulating Permanency. Those are the only core Constructs besides that one demonic spider construct called a Retriever I think.
Automatons from MM2 are mechanical aside from their Shadow-magic quasi-intelligence, so they're at least close enough to something an artificer might be able to create, but have no construction details in the book so I have no idea how they're supposed to be made in the first place. Clockwork horrors are magically-powered, have magical abilities, and are self-replicating destructive machines coordinated by a more powerful clockwork horror (as described in Dragon Magazine). Boguns are basically nature-spirit animated piles of druid stuff, bronze serpents are animated in a ritual by a 16th-level arcane caster requiring some high-level spells, dread guards are animated suits of armor with similar creation prerequisites to bronze serpents despite being much weaker and simpler, juggernaughts have magical abilities and require high-level magic to create, rogue eidolons are magical tools of Tharizdun's cult, and runic guardians are highly magical but similar to shield guardians in function.
So most constructs are too magical for a mere dabbler in magic to create and animate them. Only automatons are close enough to pure mechanical form, yet have no creation methods listed for some reason. Eberron's Artificer class has no real allusions to being an actual, technological artificer, and has access to only rudimentary mechanical skills (Open Lock and Disable Device IIRC), while focusing entirely on magical artifice and magic item crafting. The Gnome Artificer prestige class from Magic of Faerun only dabbles in magic at upper levels (using Shadow magic to make some partly-magical partly-technological devices work), and that's what I based this Artificer class on. Gnome Artificers are technological geniuses.
Although iron golems and a few others are given a partially-mechanical look in 3.X books, they're still extremely magical and powered by magic. And golems are all animated by bound Earth elementals, or Water elementals in the case of Nimblewrights but they're in Monster Manual II, not the SRD. Magic is usually described as a requirement in their creation, through rituals and transmutations of material. And constructs typically require some high-level arcane and divine spells to create, like Animate Objects, Limited Wish, Resurrection, Antimagic Field, etc. Even Shield Guardians can't be created without at least 15 levels of wizard or 16 levels of sorcerer as well as 3 levels of cleric, just to meet the spell prerequisites, in addition to the three item prerequisites (Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms & Armor are prerequisites for Craft Construct).
Homonculi are made through ritual and an infusion of the caster's blood and such, though they can be made by mid-level arcane casters with the right feats and spells. Animated Objects are, of course, simply made through the Animate Objects spell (which is divine) and maybe an arcane Permanency or maybe a Miracle emulating Permanency. Those are the only core Constructs besides that one demonic spider construct called a Retriever I think.
Automatons from MM2 are mechanical aside from their Shadow-magic quasi-intelligence, so they're at least close enough to something an artificer might be able to create, but have no construction details in the book so I have no idea how they're supposed to be made in the first place. Clockwork horrors are magically-powered, have magical abilities, and are self-replicating destructive machines coordinated by a more powerful clockwork horror (as described in Dragon Magazine). Boguns are basically nature-spirit animated piles of druid stuff, bronze serpents are animated in a ritual by a 16th-level arcane caster requiring some high-level spells, dread guards are animated suits of armor with similar creation prerequisites to bronze serpents despite being much weaker and simpler, juggernaughts have magical abilities and require high-level magic to create, rogue eidolons are magical tools of Tharizdun's cult, and runic guardians are highly magical but similar to shield guardians in function.
So most constructs are too magical for a mere dabbler in magic to create and animate them. Only automatons are close enough to pure mechanical form, yet have no creation methods listed for some reason. Eberron's Artificer class has no real allusions to being an actual, technological artificer, and has access to only rudimentary mechanical skills (Open Lock and Disable Device IIRC), while focusing entirely on magical artifice and magic item crafting. The Gnome Artificer prestige class from Magic of Faerun only dabbles in magic at upper levels (using Shadow magic to make some partly-magical partly-technological devices work), and that's what I based this Artificer class on. Gnome Artificers are technological geniuses.
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I see what your saying in that some things crafted from flesh, glass etc. aren't really applicable as magic is at play. But it could be easy to make an analogy of the costs of making an automaton using existing constructs. For instance iron golem costs 80000 GP + 5600 XP and using devices it could be roughly replicated at a similar cost.
Due to its nature as a contruct have leeway on the slots factor (as i'd never be able to use the items so their pretty much for singular purpose and its whole body capacity is a slot) and use weight as appropriate for size. Devices: Low Light Vision (1000 gp, 1 cf), Grease (1000 gp, 1 cf), Bull's Strength (6000 gp, 2 cf), Darkvision (6000 gp, 2 cf), Stinking Cloud (15000 gp, 3 cf) = Total 29000 gp, 9 cf. Using longsword method for cost calculation (adamantine 3015- steel 315 = +2700 gp/cubic foot) 2700 gp/cf * 9 cf = 24300. So 53300 and we have a reasonable explanation for all the abilities given by MM except count it as having unreliable and no magic immunity with 26700 left to go till gp price is met. Round that to 25000 and use 2500 per +1 on unreliable roll. Keep it so natural 1 results in no action and exclude magic immunity/fire healing to account for no xp/no magic abilities of creator, hence if i cheap out and get bare bones iron golem then ~50% of the time i have a 50000gp/5000lb paperweight. Would take about a month to create and voila! Improv iron golem of a mechanical nature.
[sblock=Others]
Simpler examples for say hammerer could be
Devices: Low Light Vision (1000 gp, 1 cf), Grease (1000 gp, 1 cf), Bull's Strength (6000 gp, 2 cf) = Total 8000 gp, 4 cf. Use +1000 to lower unreliable and you have 18000 gp final cost. Roughly 1/4 of iron golem cost in accordance with CR.
Or pulverizer with LL Vision as opposed to Blindsight
Devices: Horizikaul's Boom (1000 gp, 1 cf), Low Light Vision (1000 gp, 1 cf), Grease (1000 gp, 1 cf), Bull's Strength (6000 gp, 2 cf), = Total 9000 gp, 5 cf. Use +1000 to lower unreliable and you have 19000 gp final cost. Roughly 1/4 of iron golem in accordance with CR.
Or basic pet like an eagle or hawk
Devices: Grease (1000 gp, 1 cf) = Total 1000 gp, 5 cf. Use +100 to lower unreliable and you have 2000 gp final cost. Basically a scout only capable of listen, spot, optionally screeching to warn and simple attack.
Basically
1. Grease as a must have for any creature then improve its abilities with standard two slot devices to a max of say small/med/large (1/3/5) and one slot devices increasing this overall capacity by one or two devices.
2. Bull's Strength or Cat's Grace as must have device for exceptionally strong or dextrous creations. i.e 18 or greater abilities like hammerer (str) or leopard (dex)
3. Improvements to unreliable (which all have since they're non magically crafted) be as expensive as you need to make sure my creations aren't completely overpowered.
4. Certain non-replicable abilities eliminated to once again controll overpowering.
[/sblock]
This wouldn't be really time consuming as it's unlikely i'll be using this option alot but it'd be nice to know the option existed for discussion. I'm actually kind of proud of my iron golem adaptation haha. Either way, lemme know what ya think as this is my first foray into actually sitting down and analyzing D&D to any great extent
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050923a
and this link kinda explains why i brought it up as otherwise i have this strange feeling i'm gonna be somewhat underpowered after a while. (and ahead of time i know this isn't an eberron game and you don't have the books but what good is an artificer who can't even make a robot dog? haha)
Due to its nature as a contruct have leeway on the slots factor (as i'd never be able to use the items so their pretty much for singular purpose and its whole body capacity is a slot) and use weight as appropriate for size. Devices: Low Light Vision (1000 gp, 1 cf), Grease (1000 gp, 1 cf), Bull's Strength (6000 gp, 2 cf), Darkvision (6000 gp, 2 cf), Stinking Cloud (15000 gp, 3 cf) = Total 29000 gp, 9 cf. Using longsword method for cost calculation (adamantine 3015- steel 315 = +2700 gp/cubic foot) 2700 gp/cf * 9 cf = 24300. So 53300 and we have a reasonable explanation for all the abilities given by MM except count it as having unreliable and no magic immunity with 26700 left to go till gp price is met. Round that to 25000 and use 2500 per +1 on unreliable roll. Keep it so natural 1 results in no action and exclude magic immunity/fire healing to account for no xp/no magic abilities of creator, hence if i cheap out and get bare bones iron golem then ~50% of the time i have a 50000gp/5000lb paperweight. Would take about a month to create and voila! Improv iron golem of a mechanical nature.
[sblock=Others]
Simpler examples for say hammerer could be
Devices: Low Light Vision (1000 gp, 1 cf), Grease (1000 gp, 1 cf), Bull's Strength (6000 gp, 2 cf) = Total 8000 gp, 4 cf. Use +1000 to lower unreliable and you have 18000 gp final cost. Roughly 1/4 of iron golem cost in accordance with CR.
Or pulverizer with LL Vision as opposed to Blindsight
Devices: Horizikaul's Boom (1000 gp, 1 cf), Low Light Vision (1000 gp, 1 cf), Grease (1000 gp, 1 cf), Bull's Strength (6000 gp, 2 cf), = Total 9000 gp, 5 cf. Use +1000 to lower unreliable and you have 19000 gp final cost. Roughly 1/4 of iron golem in accordance with CR.
Or basic pet like an eagle or hawk
Devices: Grease (1000 gp, 1 cf) = Total 1000 gp, 5 cf. Use +100 to lower unreliable and you have 2000 gp final cost. Basically a scout only capable of listen, spot, optionally screeching to warn and simple attack.
Basically
1. Grease as a must have for any creature then improve its abilities with standard two slot devices to a max of say small/med/large (1/3/5) and one slot devices increasing this overall capacity by one or two devices.
2. Bull's Strength or Cat's Grace as must have device for exceptionally strong or dextrous creations. i.e 18 or greater abilities like hammerer (str) or leopard (dex)
3. Improvements to unreliable (which all have since they're non magically crafted) be as expensive as you need to make sure my creations aren't completely overpowered.
4. Certain non-replicable abilities eliminated to once again controll overpowering.
[/sblock]
This wouldn't be really time consuming as it's unlikely i'll be using this option alot but it'd be nice to know the option existed for discussion. I'm actually kind of proud of my iron golem adaptation haha. Either way, lemme know what ya think as this is my first foray into actually sitting down and analyzing D&D to any great extent
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050923a
and this link kinda explains why i brought it up as otherwise i have this strange feeling i'm gonna be somewhat underpowered after a while. (and ahead of time i know this isn't an eberron game and you don't have the books but what good is an artificer who can't even make a robot dog? haha)
Arkhandus
First Post
It would take about 12 years to build a mundane version of an iron golem (no magical qualities or abilities whatsoever) with the Craft skill and sufficient technological know-how. Maybe a little longer to include any kind of shadow-magic quasi-intelligence to follow commands. And that's assuming just the 80,000 GP creation cost from the raw materials and crafting and labor and such, not the full price of a complete, magical iron golem. Just the forging, metalworking, and mechanism building.
And you'd have to accumulate 5,000 pounds of iron first.
Eberron Artificers are just fine in Eberron without making personal combat robots. This isn't Eberron and it isn't the Eberron Artificer class. Your Artificer Items will be cheaper to make after you hit 11th-level, and you are already able to outfit anyone with devices they can activate by themselves. An Eberron Artificer mostly deals in magic items that only they themselves and actual spellcasters of the right sort can activate.
You'll be fine once you secure a steady supply of metal and raw materials to make alchemical reagents from, for your devices.
If I eventually deem it necessary, I might allow Magicraft to be used in making automatons and similar mundane constructs with shadow-magic infusions of semi-sentience to follow orders. But for now I'm not even going to discuss it. Elldar is nowhere near experienced enough yet to even comprehend the possibility of automated machines that don't need direct humanoid operation.
And you'd have to accumulate 5,000 pounds of iron first.
Eberron Artificers are just fine in Eberron without making personal combat robots. This isn't Eberron and it isn't the Eberron Artificer class. Your Artificer Items will be cheaper to make after you hit 11th-level, and you are already able to outfit anyone with devices they can activate by themselves. An Eberron Artificer mostly deals in magic items that only they themselves and actual spellcasters of the right sort can activate.
You'll be fine once you secure a steady supply of metal and raw materials to make alchemical reagents from, for your devices.
If I eventually deem it necessary, I might allow Magicraft to be used in making automatons and similar mundane constructs with shadow-magic infusions of semi-sentience to follow orders. But for now I'm not even going to discuss it. Elldar is nowhere near experienced enough yet to even comprehend the possibility of automated machines that don't need direct humanoid operation.
rangerjohn
Explorer
Has anyone heard from Ark, our illustrious DM?
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