Chainmail Bikinis & other Cheesecake art in the 4th Edition Core Books.

[mhacdebhandia]

as is common with lots of people who are not caucasian (as she clearly isn't).

Are you seriously suggesting that your pale-skinned, blonde-haired, blue-eyed "Amazon" lady there doesn't look wholly Caucasian?

There's nothing about the facial structure or her other features to suggest she's anything other than Germanic. The strong jaw, in particular.

Perhaps I'm confused.

 

[Pundragon]

Umm... is it just me, or is the whole argument about "which body parts should realistically be covered by one's armor" moot, at least when it comes to D&D characters? After all, the last time I checked, there wasn't a hit location chart or anything to similar effect in the game, so players are relatively free to define the form, look, and style of their armor (or lack thereof), so long as it follows established rulebook specs. As written, a midriff-baring suit of chainmail armor is just as effective vs. an enemy's sword thrusts as the fully-covering variety, n'est-ce pas? I'm just sayin'...

Oh, and as long as the majority of the people who intend to purchase those products aren't offended by it, I don't care if there's enough cheesecake in the 4E rulebooks to start a D&D bakery--so long as the art is of sufficient quality and taste (both of which are, let's face it, highly subjective) and relevant to the subject matter at hand (or thigh, as the case may be).

That's my two coppers. Viva la bon fromage!

 

[Jedi_Solo]

It's fantasy. Things are idealized. Not everything will be realistic or practical and I for one don't care. My life wouldn't make for an exciting action movie so I definately don't want 110% realistic.

I like seeing pics where women are fully armored and where they are... well... not.

I'm all for equal op so go ahead and show me pics where the guys are fully armored as well as pics where they seem to be auditioning to replace Arnold for a new Conan movie.

P.S. Since I have no avatar, does that mean I don't exist? Might explain why I don't seem to have a life.

P.S.S. Mmmmmm.... pi.

 

[Lord Fyre]

She *was* designed to look good, but also with an eye towards practicality. Unlike, say, Red Sonja.

Yes, but the Red Sonja image shows why "cheesecake" has been so long a part of "Fantasy tradition." This connection goes all the way back to the "Pulps" of the 1920s.

So, I voted for "Strongly Favor." But, I do see both the viewpoints of the people that are "against" (reguardless of degree). So perhaps, the core rulesbooks should try for a more "neutral" tone in its art.

"Favor" is still a slight majority (discounting Neutral & PI votes), so perhaps a more Pulp style fantasy setting (where such art - and additional supporting rules) would sell pretty well. And my read is that most of the "against" people would be okay with that.

 

[Klaus]

Are you seriously suggesting that your pale-skinned, blonde-haired, blue-eyed "Amazon" lady there doesn't look wholly Caucasian?

There's nothing about the facial structure or her other features to suggest she's anything other than Germanic. The strong jaw, in particular.

Perhaps I'm confused.

No, I'm saying my tanned (almost bronze-skinned), full-lipped, blonde and blue-eyed Amazon is of mixed descent.

She had to be, since the original model is a mixed-descent Brazilian:

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[small pumpkin man]

This is becoming quite the art thread. Let's dive in, shall we?



I knew beauty was in the eye of the beholder, but I guess other things are as well.

She's standing up, one foot slightly ahead of the other, her waist turned so she could bear the weight of her very large wooden shield. She's not beckoning at all, but looks very stern, and our eye level seems to be on par with the thornie's (the wolf-like plant creature next her with a menacing glare). And the terrain behind her is rising. All told, it seems like she's standing on higher ground, looking displeased that we seem to be trespassing into her territory.

I should point out that I really like her facial expression here, it was always the part I liked best about the picture, and your correct, it is very adventury.

As for the pose, maybe, my first impression on looking at is still she's a cheesecake girl posing for "the camera", but looking closer with your guidance, I do see the relaxed readiness there, so it may just be my perception.

She's wearing no lipstick, and her lips look a bit darker than her skin, as is common with lots of people who are not caucasian (as she clearly isn't).

Her hair has the most basic of cuts, and is blown to the side of her head. Her head is tilted to keep the hair from falling back in her face, giving her a clear view of us.

I think one of those words does not mean what you think it means, it could be "Caucasian", or it could be "clearly", because while she might well not be Caucasian, that certainly doesn't appear clear to me, note Wyrmshadows also assumed that she's wearing lipstick.

To me, she looks like shes wearing foundation/powder, but that's merely in the eye of the beholder, there's no way I'm going to convince someone of that who doesn't see it.

By "models hair", I meant hair models, it looks like an add for a shampoo, where they flick it out and it's long and strait and has no straggly bits, I know woman with hair like that, and I can't see them wearing it out like that in the woods, certainly attainable with magic, (which could also keep it out of her eyes in combat), certainly acceptable, it was a small point.

Her boots reach just below her knees. What you see as thigh-high boots are wooden versions of articulated cuisses made in Italy in the 16th century:
*snipped image for space*

Yep, they're cuisses, she's still wearing a thong, and she's still more sexualized than someone in a bikini, and way more than someone in actual armour.

Her midsection can be protected by her shield, which is large, round and has an indentation to let her see even while protected. As it is, she can crouch and run in that armor without exposing her groin. The arms go unarmored to allow her to grip her shield more easily and to dart in and out with her spear.

uhh, yeah, no, she could have a skirt (or whatever) and a larger breast plate without harming her maneuverability and allow her to actually cover up both squishy internal organs and the arteries closest to the skin on the human body (but mostly the squishy internal organs).

She *was* designed to look good, but also with an eye towards practicality. Unlike, say, Red Sonja.
*image snipped for space*

Absolutely, I read your earlier explanation and I'm impressed by the fact that when asked for a metal bikini warrior, you drew a competent looking woman who's wearing relatively accurate armour with a bunch of parts cut out as opposed to a mostly naked chick with a porn face, I also think there's a decent chunk of women (mostly the type who are already okay with being in a male orientated hobby) out there who would choose this as an avatar.

It's still unnecessarily sexualized, it's still cheese cake, and pictures like this are still far less appropriate than the other two you showed. (like I said earlier, I really like the second one).


(NB, response to picture of model, did you take it from a picture like that, or that picture? because she is wearing makeup there (likely not just on her face too), she does have recently done hair, and I think the skin colour looks lighter in your picture because you've used the colour of her skin while under the heavy photography lighting as opposed to the natural colour, so she doesn't look tanned at all in your picture, making her appear essentially Caucasian. It's also possible that my instant reaction of "that's not an adventurer, that's a model" was based off subtle hints I'm not able to consiously articulate.)

 

[Wyrmshadows]

No, I'm saying my tanned (almost bronze-skinned), full-lipped, blonde and blue-eyed Amazon is of mixed descent.

She had to be, since the original model is a mixed-descent Brazilian:

Ah and what a lovey mixed-race brazilian she is. Is ti just me or a lot of Brazilian women gorgeous?

Oh well....back to the purpose of this post.

I have a cousin whose mother is African American (with a bit of Caucasian and Native American) and whose father is pure Irish and the little girl looks like she could've been born to a couple of Swedes with her blonde hair, blue eyes and fair skin.

One never can tell.



Wyrsmshadows

 

[Arnwyn]

What do you feel about "cheesecake" art in the D&D IV core books?

Me? Personally?

I strongly favor cheesecake and chainmail bikinis. It's not going to happen, but I favor it nonetheless!

 

[small pumpkin man]

I see plenty of fantasy art where people aren't necessarily doing anything. This doesn't mean that she looks like a pin-up or softcore porn model. I think you are speaking in hyperbole here.

In retrospect, I think I was picking up on a bunch of other things and assumed this. Females posing for the camera is quite common and annoying in fantasy pictures however.

Lipstick sure, ok you see that but I cannnot see other makeup. I don't see eyeliner, blush, or anything that makes me think makeup except the lipstick. I see a lot of non-pinup fantasy art where women's skin coloring is far better than it often is in real life. Hell in fantasy, women probably wake up looking beautiful alot of the time. There is certainly some idealizing going on in fantasy art and I'm ok with that.

Good skin looks different to makeup. That looks like makeup to me, I can't prove anything, but if the original model was a bikini model, I'll feel somewhat vindicated.

There is some truth to what you are saying but that isn't what I saw when I saw the picture. I don't see a girl into S&M or a prostitute or anything that made my mind go there. I think that your assessment is somewhat subjective and your associations are your own. I am not arguing that the outfit isn't sexy, I am just saying that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Oh, absolutely, I don't expect the conscious reaction from most people to be "that's a prostitute", but she is more sexualized because of it, and people do notice(whether or not they think it's a good thing), it's just often unconscious and they're often unsure of why when asked. Note that one of the few pictures in 3e which people complained about being "too cheesecaky" was the frenzied berserker, who is only really showing the upper thighs and arms, IMO the problem was the cultural idea that only showing the upper thighs in that way is generally only seen in sexual contexts.

She's not wearing heavy leather fishing boots, she is wearing what appears to be some articulated leather armor around her lower and mid-thighs that sits over her boots. These things don't even wrap around to the back of the leg, they are obviously strapped on. These are apparently designed to offer some minimum protection while at the same time avoiding the problem you describe.

I don't agree at all. I see nothing about what she is wearing that is confining at all. Her gear may not protect her thoroughly but I bet if she take a jab to the shoulders, chest or lower to mid thighs her gear would offer her some protection. She is by no means worse off by wearing what she is wearing. She would be far, far more vulnerable if she were dressed in the manner demonstrated by your "appropriate" picture.

The appropriate picture is appropriate because she isn't attempting to be armoured, it's assumed either she's just lounging around or she'd prevent attacks with magic, as opposed to the picture in question, where she's obviously outfit for war, but deliberately has large holes in the armour with the intention of appearing sexy. She's uncomfortable without gaining the proper possible protection, and she's putting sexy above health and safety.

The point of the shown picture was to show I'm not against hot, mostly naked women in D&D, but merely against it when inappropriate, if a character is outfitted for battle, it's not actually impossible, or even particularly hard to show them as attractive without putting big holes in the armour(as this thread alone shows), most D&D artists just don't seem to try however.

I think that this picture and others like it, when combined with a broader variety of non-Cheesecake art, does no damage at all to the hobby whatsoever. I personally feel that more women than not wouldn't bat an eyelash at the picture let alone think that this is a game they wouldn't want to play. I might agree of the picture was going to be the cover of the PHB but it isn't.

Yeah, maybe, I do know women who don't care, women who would like that as a character as well as women who consider the art to be silly and emblematic of the nature of the game as a make orientated hobby. I also know a lot of guys who think it's silly don't want it near their games. It's very late here, I should be in bed, and this is a multi layered issue, so I'm not going to attempt to discuss this right now.

Personally I wish it was merely for the fact that the ugly WAR art WoTC decided to go with leaves me cold.

Wyrmshadows

Yeah, hear you on that.

 

[Klaus]

<snip>

(NB, response to picture of model, did you take it from a picture like that, or that picture? because she is wearing makeup there (likely not just on her face too), she does have recently done hair, and I think the skin colour looks lighter in your picture because you've used the colour of her skin while under the heavy photography lighting as opposed to the natural colour, so she doesn't look tanned at all in your picture, making her appear essentially Caucasian. It's also possible that my instant reaction of "that's not an adventurer, that's a model" was based off subtle hints I'm not able to consiously articulate.)

Re: model: I used another picture as a basis for the pencil work. For this oicture I did it on grayscale and then applied color to it, so I can tell you that there's no makeup, just shading of the skin tone (only the lips are of a darker color).

And I have to say, this picture was ultimately considered TOO sexy, and we went with this one instead:

... beacuse when you hire a Brazilian and ask him to draw teh sexy, you'll get your money's worth of sexy, and then some!

And please don't think I'm getting annoyed or anything, this is actually a good talk!