Chainmail Bikinis & other Cheesecake art in the 4th Edition Core Books.

[small pumpkin man]

I think all of Klaus's art is fine for a RPing game. I really like pic #1.

I like picture #1 because I can imagine a forest dwelling woman who (when its warm enough) wears some gear like this. These are real life warriors who wore less than this. Amazonian Indians, some African tribesmen, some Plains Indians, Celts, Australian Aboriginals, etc. And weirdly enough, I am of a mind to think that a woman who is unconcerned about the armor value of her attire could actually dress is a manner she finds sexy and feminine.

I find it interesting how in America at least, it is ok to see an African woman, an Amazonian Woman or any non-Western (ie. caucasian) woman in a loincloth and nothing else and no one bats an eyelash. Its like the National Geographic magazines where there is an anthropologists objectivity. As long as a women in presumed to be part of some stone-age tribe her breasts and buttocks can shown on a nature show on prime time cable without parental warnings.

However, you show the breasts of a sexy blonde...well then shield the children because that will melt their little brains. Even if you put that blond in a villiage along the Amazon, there is no way she would be seen in the same light as the native girls.

I would bet money that if there were an actual lost village of europeans were the ladies wore nothing but loincloths and the village was filled with 16-21yr old women wandering around wearing next to nothing...that show would be slapped with an R-rating and there would be people fighting to keep it off the air (like they did the Victoria's Secret fashion show).

I know context matters, but my point is that it seems we have come to a point where any artwork showing a women in sexy attire is somehow offensive to someone somewhere. IMO there are times when someone doesn't have a lot of clothing that aren't trying to be sexy. Maybe in their culture folks don't wear alot of clothes. Maybe its the viewer's hypersnesitivity that is the problem and not the attire.



Wyrmshadows

This picture is appropriate

as are most of the other pictures in this thread, Klaus's #1, while a fine pin up pic, is not. RPG art, especially in the PHB is supposed to show prospective players ideas for their character, that is inappropriate for the following reasons. (none of which have anything to do with race)

a)She's posing like a softcore porn model, or a "pin up picture", as opposed to actually doing something.

b)She's wearing makeup and lipstick, and has hair like model, not an adventurer. (To be honest, this one is pretty much acceptable most of the time, since many women want their character to be be pretty, and most guys wont notice, but it's not something that should be overdone.)

c)In Western culture, thigh high boots and thongs are generally associated with prostitutes, fetish wear, and risque fancy dress (eg, halloween). To put a more general spin on it, showing the upper thighs and lower stomach, while covering large other areas of the body is lot more sexualized than just wearing a bikini.

d)Part of the reason for c) is that wearing heavy clothing on the legs and not the torso is uncomfortable and restrictive, and most people won't do it without a specific reason, this is, the character is hurting their ability to fight and adventure to look sexy, like a woman wearing fetish wear while on a construction site.

e)Related to d), Barkskin or not, wearing armour like that will restrict her ability to fight in combat, meaning she's more interested in looking good than fighting, to many people, this implies she's just another incompetent pretty girl for the real hero to save. Not a good implication for something that's supposed to be inspiration for a female player's character.

I should also point out that this doesn't really offend people, it just tells them (especially women) that this isn't the type of game or pastime they would enjoy, and since this would be counter to WotC's current marketing strategy, they should stick to the 4e art they have (much of which is quite sexy, and most of which and I like, with the exception of some of the covers).

 

[ruemere]

Klaus,

a little criticism directed at your pictures and post. I like your pictures in general, I have some doubts about particular aspects of these.

First of all, it's easier to use miniatures when posting to forum/web. Easier for bandwidth and speeds up page loading.

Secondly, going item by item:

Some cheesecake doesn't hurt. Some people like playing sexy characters, and there should be some art for it.

The first time this druidess gets hit by a branch, she's going to take painful lesson of practical applicability of sleeves and skirts. Of course, she may be just posing for an artist.

Verdict: CHEESEcake.

Another little detail - if your elbow or kneecap gets hit, you're a goner. Intense pain, unusable limb. Hence the skaters wear pads on their joints.

Verdict: Cheesecake.

I may be accused for having a thing for little, well-built girls... along with millions of anime fans out there. But this girl has it all, and more. She's has a saddle, thigh protections, she's not going to catch pneumonia, and, on the top of that, she is in command.

Verdict: CheeseCAKE.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Shortman McLeod]

Might want to qualify that some, because that's really an overgeneralization there.

I've never been alienated by 'cheesecake art', and as others have said, women they know haven't been either.

So, while it may alienate 'some' women gamers, unlike your statement, it doesn't alienate 'all' women gamers.

And how do we know you're a woman gamer?

Next you're going to insist that it's really you in your avatar pic. Puh-leeeze.

 

[Piratecat]

And how do we know you're a woman gamer?

Next you're going to insist that it's really you in your avatar pic. Puh-leeeze.

Please restrict the sarcasm and replace it with politeness.

On a separate note, Klaus, using the sblock code is a great way to speed up the thread. Thanks for doing it with that one image. And wow, they look like they're from a fantastic adventure!

 

[Nifft]

Next you're going to insist that it's really you in your avatar pic.

I happen to know for a fact that Shortman McLeod's avatar is an accurate representation of the man himself.

(As is mine.)

Cheers, -- N

PS: On-topic, I'm sticking with: if they're allowed to dump their helmet, the rest of their armor's appearance may as well be decoration, or perhaps some kind of glamour or other magic is at work. And we all know that they're all going to skip helmets, men and women alike, because otherwise we won't be able to see their vitally plot-important dueling scars, birth marks, glowing red eyes or other dashing and/or sexilicious features. (Unless they're an NPC who's really the father of one of the PCs, and then he gets a big face-covering helmet which he only removes in the last movie boss fight.)

 

[Jhulae]

Next you're going to insist that it's really you in your avatar pic.

What? you mean yours *isn't* you?

I thought Piratecat was a, well, pirate cat. And Nifft was a Penguin.. Now you're saying people *don't* use avatars that aren't them because they find a picture they like somewhere and make an avatar from it?

I'm shocked.

(Whatever your is, actually... I can only guess it's something odd because of Nifft's post. I don't see any of your posts.)

 

[A'koss]

...so, why is she wearing armor at all? I'd be much more okay with her being stark naked. It's the "armor that slows you down and limits your motion while leaving your vitals wide open" that I have problems with.

I like the woman in A'koss's post. Yeah, she's got huge tracts of land, but she's making a serious effort to protect them, like any sane warrior would. And her appearance and posture convey "I'm a bad-ass adventurer," not "I'm trying to sell this book to horny gamers."

I thought I'd throw another one out there I've always liked in the vein of "sensible but attractive adventuring attire" . I think I just like the idea of HL characters who generally have a number of attendants, squires and such in their orbit...

 

[Wyrmshadows]

This picture is appropriate

as are most of the other pictures in this thread, Klaus's #1, while a fine pin up pic, is not. RPG art, especially in the PHB is supposed to show prospective players ideas for their character, that is inappropriate for the following reasons. (none of which have anything to do with race)

a)She's posing like a softcore porn model, or a "pin up picture", as opposed to actually doing something.

I see plenty of fantasy art where people aren't necessarily doing anything. This doesn't mean that she looks like a pin-up or softcore porn model. I think you are speaking in hyperbole here.

b)She's wearing makeup and lipstick, and has hair like model, not an adventurer. (To be honest, this one is pretty much acceptable most of the time, since many women want their character to be be pretty, and most guys wont notice, but it's not something that should be overdone.)

Lipstick sure, ok you see that but I cannnot see other makeup. I don't see eyeliner, blush, or anything that makes me think makeup except the lipstick. I see a lot of non-pinup fantasy art where women's skin coloring is far better than it often is in real life. Hell in fantasy, women probably wake up looking beautiful alot of the time. There is certainly some idealizing going on in fantasy art and I'm ok with that.

c)In Western culture, thigh high boots and thongs are generally associated with prostitutes, fetish wear, and risque fancy dress (eg, halloween). To put a more general spin on it, showing the upper thighs and lower stomach, while covering large other areas of the body is lot more sexualized than just wearing a bikini.

There is some truth to what you are saying but that isn't what I saw when I saw the picture. I don't see a girl into S&M or a prostitute or anything that made my mind go there. I think that your assessment is somewhat subjective and your associations are your own. I am not arguing that the outfit isn't sexy, I am just saying that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

d)Part of the reason for c) is that wearing heavy clothing on the legs and not the torso is uncomfortable and restrictive, and most people won't do it without a specific reason, this is, the character is hurting their ability to fight and adventure to look sexy, like a woman wearing fetish wear while on a construction site.

She's not wearing heavy leather fishing boots, she is wearing what appears to be some articulated leather armor around her lower and mid-thighs that sits over her boots. These things don't even wrap around to the back of the leg, they are obviously strapped on. These are apparently designed to offer some minimum protection while at the same time avoiding the problem you describe.

e)Related to d), Barkskin or not, wearing armour like that will restrict her ability to fight in combat, meaning she's more interested in looking good than fighting, to many people, this implies she's just another incompetent pretty girl for the real hero to save. Not a good implication for something that's supposed to be inspiration for a female player's character.

I don't agree at all. I see nothing about what she is wearing that is confining at all. Her gear may not protect her thoroughly but I bet if she take a jab to the shoulders, chest or lower to mid thighs her gear would offer her some protection. She is by no means worse off by wearing what she is wearing. She would be far, far more vulnerable if she were dressed in the manner demonstrated by your "appropriate" picture.

I should also point out that this doesn't really offend people, it just tells them (especially women) that this isn't the type of game or pastime they would enjoy, and since this would be counter to WotC's current marketing strategy, they should stick to the 4e art they have (much of which is quite sexy, and most of which and I like, with the exception of some of the covers).

I think that this picture and others like it, when combined with a broader variety of non-Cheesecake art, does no damage at all to the hobby whatsoever. I personally feel that more women than not wouldn't bat an eyelash at the picture let alone think that this is a game they wouldn't want to play. I might agree of the picture was going to be the cover of the PHB but it isn't.

Personally I wish it was merely for the fact that the ugly WAR art WoTC decided to go with leaves me cold.





Wyrmshadows

 

[Wyrmshadows]

I thought I'd throw another one out there I've always liked in the vein of "sensible but attractive adventuring attire" . I think I just like the idea of HL characters who generally have a number of attendants, squires and such in their orbit...

I love this picture myself. Its from Fantasy Flight's Midnight Line of products. Great picture on an even better boxed set.



Wyrmshadows.

 

[Klaus]

This is becoming quite the art thread. Let's dive in, shall we?

a)She's posing like a softcore porn model, or a "pin up picture", as opposed to actually doing something.

I knew beauty was in the eye of the beholder, but I guess other things are as well.

She's standing up, one foot slightly ahead of the other, her waist turned so she could bear the weight of her very large wooden shield. She's not beckoning at all, but looks very stern, and our eye level seems to be on par with the thornie's (the wolf-like plant creature next her with a menacing glare). And the terrain behind her is rising. All told, it seems like she's standing on higher ground, looking displeased that we seem to be trespassing into her territory.

b)She's wearing makeup and lipstick, and has hair like model, not an adventurer. (To be honest, this one is pretty much acceptable most of the time, since many women want their character to be be pretty, and most guys wont notice, but it's not something that should be overdone.)

She's wearing no lipstick, and her lips look a bit darker than her skin, as is common with lots of people who are not caucasian (as she clearly isn't).

Her hair has the most basic of cuts, and is blown to the side of her head. Her head is tilted to keep the hair from falling back in her face, giving her a clear view of us.

c)In Western culture, thigh high boots and thongs are generally associated with prostitutes, fetish wear, and risque fancy dress (eg, halloween). To put a more general spin on it, showing the upper thighs and lower stomach, while covering large other areas of the body is lot more sexualized than just wearing a bikini.

Her boots reach just below her knees. What you see as thigh-high boots are wooden versions of articulated cuisses made in Italy in the 16th century:

d)Part of the reason for c) is that wearing heavy clothing on the legs and not the torso is uncomfortable and restrictive, and most people won't do it without a specific reason, this is, the character is hurting their ability to fight and adventure to look sexy, like a woman wearing fetish wear while on a construction site.

Her midsection can be protected by her shield, which is large, round and has an indentation to let her see even while protected. As it is, she can crouch and run in that armor without exposing her groin. The arms go unarmored to allow her to grip her shield more easily and to dart in and out with her spear.

e)Related to d), Barkskin or not, wearing armour like that will restrict her ability to fight in combat, meaning she's more interested in looking good than fighting, to many people, this implies she's just another incompetent pretty girl for the real hero to save. Not a good implication for something that's supposed to be inspiration for a female player's character.

She *was* designed to look good, but also with an eye towards practicality. Unlike, say, Red Sonja.