Cleave and AOO: What is the problem?

[Pinotage]

Isn't an AoO defined as a single melee attack ? If that's the case, then how can you cleave with an AoO since it's not an single melee attack anymore, but two attacks for an attack of opportunity?

Pinotage

 

[Thanee]

Anyone remember the original version of Expert Tactician, ...

Visions of blind kobolds come to mind...

@Pinotage: Cleave (mechanically) gives you an extra melee attack after another melee attack has downed a foe. However, the description and thus the idea behind Cleave is, that the "same attack" is carried on. The mechanics are there to model this idea.

Bye
Thanee

 

[glass]

I allow Cleave attempts after an AoO but it uses up another AoO in my game. Hence no Combat Reflexes....No Cleave! This seems to work well in my Game, Balance-Wise.

How about the opposite? If you drop a foe with an AoO and have the cleave feat, you don not get to make an extra attack, but the attack that dropped the foe does not count towards your limit of AoO for the round.

A house rule, obviously, but just an idea that occurred to me reading hero4hire's post.


glass.

 

[Pinotage]

@Pinotage: Cleave (mechanically) gives you an extra melee attack after another melee attack has downed a foe. However, the description and thus the idea behind Cleave is, that the "same attack" is carried on. The mechanics are there to model this idea.

So you're saying that while the mechanics model cleave as an extra attack, you're not in reality, based on the description, making one, but carrying on your single strike?

I can understand that. I don't buy it, but I can understand it. It presumes too much about the nature of the strike, e.g. slicing a head off or cutting the torso in half, or stabbing straight through a foe. I prefer to think on it as another attack as part of a trained attack routine. So cleave teaches you attack styles and routines that allow you to 'carry on' a strike after the first. Sort of Karate 'Kata' style. Slice, twirl, slice again.

It hence requires a second attack roll for the second strike, thereby implying that that it can't be part of an AoO.

Pinotage

 

[Thanee]

Mechanically it is not part of an AoO. It comes after the AoO. It's a seperate extra melee attack with the same attack bonus.

Bye
Thanee

 

[robberbaron]

I have found that cleaving from AoOs is annoying and can completely ruin my NPC's plans.

On the other hand, the party have yet to meet someone who does it to them and I can't wait for them to find out just how nasty it can be. Heh, heh.

If you don't like a game-mechanic in the hands of the PCs, use it yourself and see if you still don't like it.

 

[Pinotage]

Yes, but it's an extra attack that takes place during the whole AoO sequence. It can't, if an AoO is to be defined as a single melee attack, hence the whole AoO action is a single melee attack. If you allow Cleave, why not let a critter Great Cleave 7 more creatures in an AoO? Which, of course, is just silly.

My view of Cleave is that it's part of a combat sequence, like a karate 'kata'. If you strike something down, you've learnt how to follow up on that. When taking an AoO, you're not performing a combat sequence. You're performing a sharp attack in a split second because somebody else had left themselves open. IMHO, that excludes the use of cleave.

In the old end, we're talking semantics.

Pinotage

 

[Thanee]

Well, for one, I do not argue that it is silly. Exactly my opinion and I do not allow it (see first page).

Mechanically, however, a Cleave attack is inherently "out of phase", much like an AoO, as it is immediate. The Cleave interrupts the regular game flow (here return to the resolve of the other character's action after the AoO) and inserts a new attack, after which the game moves on.

Bye
Thanee

 

[reanjr]

I have heard a lot of people that don’t like the idea of being able to cleave off an AOO but I don’t for the life of me understand why.

Illustration of the problem:

Player 1: I move to threaten BBEG.
Player 2: I (rogue Combat Reflexes, Sneak Attack +4d6, and Cleave), move to flank.
Player 3: I (using custom spell that seemed reasonable at the time) summon 16 tiny mice and have one of them immediately attack Player 2. I have the rest attack the BBEG. Each round I have one more mouse attack Player 2
DM: Alright, Player 2, the mouse enters your square to attack. You get an AoO.
Player 2: Sweet. I roll a 19 to hit. I cause 3 points of damage if it hit.
DM: You drop the mouse. Cleave on.
Player 2: Sweet. A 19 hits that guy so I cause *rolls* 22 points of damage.

--- rinse, repeat

It's stupid that because the mouse did something to provoke an AoO, the BBEG can be hit an extra time that round. Thank the designers Cleave only works once per round, at least.

 

[Scion]

Yeah, but I just fail to see how the presence of another opponent should make this easier. If anything, Cleave should just give an extra attack every round then, the hard training and all that.

I guess you have never done any martial training vs multiple opponents. It is very common to work in such a way as to make your two foes work against one another in order to be able to accomplish your goal. Whether by making one step onto the other, throw them onto the other, get their weapon of choice in the way, make them try to do some sort of tactic which seems favorable but isnt, etc.. this happens in the movies all of the time. There are even other feats that simulate this same sort of exercise. They do it in one way, cleave does it in another. It does happen in real life, this is one way the game uses to simulate it.

If you want a feat that gives you an extra attack every round then go for it. This feat trains the person for something else entirely. It takes advantage of a situation that is going on around you, not something you do yourself. Big difference.

Your usual argument.

That something that is not very strong when it occurs and happens rarely shouldnt be looked at as a problem? Sure. It is an arguement that can work in many places in the rules.

Once again, anyone want to show an instance where it is overpowered rather than just someone taking advantage of one of their feats? Especially one that, imo, loses a lot of power as levels increase.

Cleave is the "extension" of a successful attack, which needed only very little of your power to execute it, so to say, and this can be carried on against another target.

This is one interpretation of the feat, and there are millions of others (changing with circumstances).

If you only stick with one limited interpretation then there will be lots of cases where it just doesnt make any sense to use, however, the feat itself is much more broad than that.

It is completely not under your control

This seems to be where your problem lies. The attacker does indeed have a great deal of control. They get to choose whether or not to take it, they get to choose which of their weapons to use, they get to choose what sort of attack to make, they get to choose which of their feats to apply. Sounds like a whole lot of control to me.

Its effect is marginal enough to be ignorable, anyways, as long as you have your 16-ton weights ready for the players trying to abuse it.

Then you wont mind describing a few situations where it is so horribly abusive that it would need the dm to smite someone for attempting it.