Cleave and AOO: What is the problem?

[sfedi]

the spell will be around 3rd level anyway, possibly fourth (because there are so many of them again, even at fifth level having someone get swarmed by 16 mice that deal 1 damage each is a pretty major attack spell

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

 

[Lamoni]

You are right scion. Cleaving on attacks of opportunity makes perfect sense.

I am fighting and it is going badly for me... so one of my unarmed followers tries to grapple my opponent so I can have a better chance to win. Unfortunately, that just killed him and hurt me more. But of course that would happen. I wouldn't ever expect any other outcome. Same thing would happen if they just wanted to trip him instead... or tried to disarm him. Those are sure stupid things to do... try to rescue your master from getting killed the best you can, and the master deserves to get hit again for their effort. This is what all the training for cleave is supposed to do. They trained to be able to hit you extra times each round whether or not you provoke any attacks of opportunity. The training is only extra beneficial because it grants them the ability to plow through weak opponents without sacrificing any attack rolls against their primary opponent.

I realize that you can look at this scenario and see nothing wrong. That is very fine. I respect your point of view. You even have the rules to back you up that this is the way it does work. Others can see this situation and think, "Wait a minute, that just sounds stupid." I am one of those people, you are not. I like to keep stupid things out of my game. Of course we all have different ideas of what stupid is... and that is the best part about D&D. Each group can play the game to their liking by removing what is stupid to them. It isn't a computer game that is unalterable. Oh, and for your information, there are very few rules that I disagree with or think they are stupid. Some take more time for me to become accustomed to though.

Also, your remark about how it is much harder to believe a fireball than this was sort of condescending. Do you really think that it is hard to imagine magic doing magical things?

 

[Scion]

hey sfedi, if you dont believe me then pop up a first through third level guy. Lets stat up some mice and have them swarm over the guy. At these levels one does not expect an ac higher than 18 or so really. So, this likely gives them a pretty good chance to hit. 15 attacks (-1 because the aoo is likely to get it killed) means probably around 7 damage dealt. Casters and the like of first or second level might just be knocked unconscious, fighter types have a few more rounds. It is important to understand that useing a single spell to cause a ton of attacks to happen, even small ones, can have big consequences, especially at these levels.

Just for fun.

Mouse
Diminutive Animal
Hit Dice: 1/8 d8 (1 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 15 ft. (3 squares), climb 15 ft., swim 15 ft.
Armor Class: 18 (+4 size, +4 Dex), touch 18, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/(not gonna happen, rolling isnt really necissary, just say it loses )
Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d2–5)
Full Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d2–5)
Space/Reach: 1' ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +1
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Balance +12, Climb +11, Hide +20, Move Silently +12, Swim +9
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Environment: Any
Organization: Plague (10–100)
Challenge Rating: 1/8

Something like that at least They are hard to hit, they only do 1 damage each hit but they hit pretty well. Sounds like a low level guys nightmare, a miniature swarm of mice.

As an attack spell this can actually be pretty nice. Surround someone by this thing and attack all at once. If your buddy is also attacking the guy you are pretty much assured to gain the flanking bonus along with dealing a pretty good amount of damage.

At higher levels however it just doesnt do anything. But, comparing it with a summon natures ally 3 for d4+1 first level natures allies seems about right.



Lamoni: He tried to help but wound up doing the wrong thing. This happens all of the time. Sounds like the ability is doing exactly what it is supposed to.

Sure it sucks for the big guy, but that is how the ball bounces on occasion.

Also, of course I know that magic can do magical things. But then, feats are able to do things that strain believability as well. I dont see any difference there.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I guess you have never done any martial training vs multiple opponents. It is very common to work in such a way as to make your two foes work against one another in order to be able to accomplish your goal. Whether by making one step onto the other, throw them onto the other, get their weapon of choice in the way, make them try to do some sort of tactic which seems favorable but isnt, etc.. this happens in the movies all of the time. There are even other feats that simulate this same sort of exercise. They do it in one way, cleave does it in another. It does happen in real life, this is one way the game uses to simulate it.

I am glad you brought this up.

In real life, it is a tremendous tactical disadvantage to be fighting multiple foes. That is exactly why our movie action heroes are always performing extremely bizarre & fantastic tactics to create the illusion that victory is plausible. Those clever tricks you are talking about are necessary precisely because the outcome is otherwise a foregone conclusion.

By design, D&D tones down the tactical disadvantage of fighting multiple foes to almost nothing. +2?!? That is a joke if we want to talk about realism. Being flanked iis only a minor nuisance unless you are up against a Rogue.

In the context of a game that purposefully removes almost all the tactical downside of fighting multiple opponents, it is illogical to keep the tactical upside.

 

[Scion]

Flanking bonus and having to split ones attacks arent bad enough for you? Needing special training in order to get any bonus isnt enough?

Odd. Those both sounded like bad things to me.

Still, in real life fighting multiple opponents is all about being able to play one against the other. It is possible, and generally it isnt even that hard unless you are fighting very experienced people.

Seems like the abstraction works out fine. Some of the penalties might not be big enough, but then some of the bonuses are not either so I guess they minimized both sides in an effort to keep things more balanced.

 

[Scion]

Still though, I like the mouse spell.

At 16 it is too strong for a 2nd level spell but might be too weak for a 3rd. If I get a chance I'll run it by some people and see what they have to say about it.

 

[Thanee]

It is very common to work in such a way as to make your two foes work against one another in order to be able to accomplish your goal.

Yeah, I'm aware of that, but that has very little to do with Cleaving and AoO. What you describe is making multiple opponents hinder each other (i.e. in game terms, having cover to some or something like that), that's something completely different. In real life, if two opponents are 10-20 feet apart and one of them does something stupid, this does hardly affect the other, and this is what Cleaving off an AoO allows.

It has nothing to do with actively using one person against another. An AoO is a reaction to an opening an opponent gives, not some fancy maneuver, which is used to put that opponent at a disadvantage. It's purely the opponent's choice, whether the AoO is provoked or not.

I guess you have never done any martial training vs multiple opponents...

...this happens in the movies all of the time...

Then you wont mind describing a few situations where it is so horribly abusive that it would need the dm to smite someone for attempting it.

I actually do not think it is abusive (other than the obvious bucket of snakes kind of crap). I just think it's wrong.

Bye
Thanee

 

[FireLance]

::shrugs:: balance issues show that it isnt unbalanced. Flavor issues can be argued either way for anything and everything. It fits with what the feat is supposed to do and is allowed by the raw.

I do agree that allowing a cleave on an AOO isn't unbalanced, and that the main disagreement is flavor.

You could say that Cleave works off the surge of adenaline a character gets whenever he downs an opponent. Cleaving off an AOO makes sense in this instance.

Or you could say that Cleave works by setting up an attack so that if it downs an opponent, you still have enough momentum to make another one. It could then be argued that you don't have enough time to do this in an AOO (a quick reaction to a gap in an opponent's defences), and so you can't cleave off it.

I'm more inclined to take the second view, and I wouldn't allow cleaving off an AOO in my game. However, I wouldn't say the first view is wrong, either.

 

[Thanee]

Cleave (General)
You can follow through with powerful blows.

That's at least, what the feat says it does.

Bye
Thanee

 

[sfedi]

hey sfedi, if you dont believe me then pop up a first through third level guy. Lets stat up some mice and have them swarm over the guy. At these levels one does not expect an ac higher than 18 or so really. So, this likely gives them a pretty good chance to hit. 15 attacks (-1 because the aoo is likely to get it killed) means probably around 7 damage dealt. Casters and the like of first or second level might just be knocked unconscious, fighter types have a few more rounds. It is important to understand that useing a single spell to cause a ton of attacks to happen, even small ones, can have big consequences, especially at these levels.

Yes, you're right.
The most similar spell to do this kind of thing is:

Summon Swarm
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Brd 2, Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 2

But the point of that example is that you could get a 1st level spell that could summon, let's say 1D4+1 mice, and do the job.

Anyway, the point isn't that Cleave + AoO is uber-powerfull (that was already shown not to be the case) but that is isn't very believable.
Even DMs that allow Cleave+AoO don't allow the "bag of rats" thing, pulling out some "enemy definition" stuff that makes less sense than Cleave + AoO.
But then again, as someone else posted, it comes down to each group tastes.

Happy gaming.