d20 Super Heroes --- coming in July '06 from WOTC

[Knightfall]

The amazon link has been updated...

d20 Super Heroes

... and the book is now listed as being 160 pages, not 96 pages. So, it looks like d20 Super Heroes will be like d20 Future, in comparison. The price still says $19.95 but that "feels" like it is wrong. 9Of course, maybe it's a deal from Amazon for those that want to pre-purchase.)

Official release date is July 11, 2006... just in time for my birthday.

Cheers!

KF72

 

[Ranger REG]

Do you see this product as competition for M&M? In any sense?

While I can't speak for Chris, but from my observation, I doubt it, not with d20 Superheroes as a themebook supplement for d20 Modern.

It's more like Palladium's Heroes Unlimited competing against HERO's Champions.

BTW, for WotC, I have but one word of warning: Foundation (the first failed attempt at d20 superhero RPG).

 

[Psion]

I know at least one sale they're getting that M&M didn't.

I'm given to wonder if the situation would be different if there was no M&M, and WotC was the big guy impinging on your territory.

And I don't know any publishers that don't grandstand to a degree, so I call 'em as I see 'em. And it still looks that way. If for no other reason than those gamers who think that if it comes from WotC it's automatically better/more official/whatever they have in their heads.

A look at the related thread over on the WotC board will show this to be true. We have folks over there who thought that a former incarnation of the Marvel licensed RPG used d6. Some folks over there don't get out much...

Yeah, it'll sell copies. Just because WotC are who they are. I really doubt that even with WotC's market presence, it's going to approach the sales of M&M. If we had a way of verifying it, I'd be willing to place a small wager...

It should be interesting, though, to see whether it has a nice synergy with Blood & Vigilance the way that D20 Apoc did with Darwin's world. (An aside: I have yet to get D20 cyberscape; how well does that match up with B&C: Cybernetics?)

 

[Psion]

BTW, for WotC, I have but one word of warning: Foundation (the first failed attempt at d20 superhero RPG).

The laws of reality prevent the product from being as lame as Foundation.

It could, however, be as tame as d20 past.

 

[C. Baize]

I'm given to wonder if the situation would be different if there was no M&M, and WotC was the big guy impinging on your territory.

If I had a really good selling product, I'm not saying I wouldn't grandstand. Nor did I say there was anything inherently wrong with grandstanding. But if someone's shouting on a corner, it's okay to recognize that they're shouting on the corner rather than softly whispering down the block, ya know? I mean... I worked for General Nutrition Centers, that doesn't mean I know how much Ginseng they'll sell this year. Having worked at WotC doesn't automagically make one an expert in all fields of the RPG industry. I'm not particularly awed by "I worked at WotC... buy my stuff and don't even consider disagreeing with me about anything RPG related!" (oh, come on, get that sour look off your face... we've all seen it from different ex-WotC folks at one time or another, in one form or another). And I can't necessarily blame them for playing that card... if I worked at WotC as a freakin' janitor, I'd probably play the same card. "I worked at WotC! I are a publisher gawd! Buy my stuff!" (oh, and I still buy product from some of the ex-WotC folks who played that card, especially early on, it's just something that makes me chuckle and move on. I'm not really knocking them for it, just calling it like I see it, as I say... I would do the same thing)
I honestly don't have a problem with publishers grandstanding, it's a decent marketing tool. Being one of those people, however, who couldn't really care less about M&M, and not having a competing product (or any product, for that matter) on the market at all... I have no vested interest here. I think D20 Super Heroes will outsell pretty much any 3rd party product based on WotC's name power, alone.

A look at the related thread over on the WotC board will show this to be true. We have folks over there who thought that a former incarnation of the Marvel licensed RPG used d6. Some folks over there don't get out much...

Err... what?
Tell me they don't think the Marvel Super Heroes FASERIP system was D6...
Please...

Yeah, it'll sell copies. Just because WotC are who they are. I really doubt that even with WotC's market presence, it's going to approach the sales of M&M. If we had a way of verifying it, I'd be willing to place a small wager...

It'd be a fun little bet.
But all in all, it doesn't really matter. As long as both books profit, then they're both successful. And if company A gets theirs... it shouldn't matter to their loyal adherents if company B gets theirs, too.

It should be interesting, though, to see whether it has a nice synergy with Blood & Vigilance the way that D20 Apoc did with Darwin's world. (An aside: I have yet to get D20 cyberscape; how well does that match up with B&C: Cybernetics?)

I dunno about Cyberscape... but B&C: Cybernetics rocks.
As for it having synergy with B&V... THAT would be cool. I hadn't even considered that aspect. That would make it MUCH more useful in my book, and in my game.

Honestly, though... I suspect it'll be its own take. It might have similarities with which one could try to tie it to M&M, or 4CTF, or B&V, or D20 Modern Super Heroes, or any of a number of other Supers Genre games (and I... errr... anxiously await the inevitable "LOL OMFG! OMFG! They totally stole [x] from [insert favorite supers game, here]!!!!! LOLOLOLOLO! OMFG OMFG OMFG!!!"). And I further suspect that, like me, most people who have a favorite Supers game will stick to that, and will mine D20 Super Heroes for any interesting new mechanics or powers that may have been missed, and bolt those on top of their existing game. Thus fulfilling its true nature... as a toolkit.

Dig it?
I do.

 

[Reynard]

* It'll suck, or otherwise be of limited use. Class and level based systems don't work that well with superheroes. I can't see them making anything particularly good without introducing incompatibility with the rest of d20 Modern.

While my favorite supers system is HERO5, and I think MnM is a great implementation of a similar system using d20 as a base, I have to disagree with this assessment. IME, a lot of casual players would enjoy supers, but are often intimidated by point buy systems. The strongest feature of a race(background)/class type system is that you can easily express what it is your character can do, and what sort of super they are. Take an Spiderman fan and try and have him figure out the character in MnM, or hand him a Radiation Accident Smart Hero 2/ Fast Hero 4 with the Wallcrawling, Superstrength and Danger Sense power-feats (plus Gadget: Web shooter) and guess which one will get him into the game faster.

My first experience with supers gaming was Heroes Unlimited from Palladium. While the Palladium core system has its problems, that game was *fun* and helped me, not an old hat in those days, create the heroes I wanted to create by packaging elements in archtypical classes. Really, supers is no less suited to race/class than fantasy is.

 

[2WS-Steve]

The Skaff Effect probably works like this:

d20 Super Heroes helps drive the sales of the market leader -- Mutants and Masterminds -- because it draws some additional people into the supers genre, but, because WotC won't produce any support material for it, those customers start looking elsewhere and end up at M&M.

In turn, M&M keeps people who otherwise might have defected from tabletop RPGing (due to ennui with plain old D&D) from doing so -- and later many of them go back to or split time with regular D&D -- thus driving D&D's sales.

 

[takyris]

Random side note: As a rules junkie, I have no problem with M&M's point buy, nor would I imagine that people coming from more complex systems, or systems designed from the ground up as point-buy, would have any problem with that.

However, trying to convince somebody whose most recent superhero gaming experience was "City of Heroes" that M&M is worth the hassle of building a character can be frustrating at times (although I'm speaking for 1E, not 2E). Somebody playing a "Level 10 Blaster" in City of Heroes might really enjoy a d20-Modernization of Superhero conventions, whether it be in the form of d20 Supers or Blood & Vigilance.

So this could be an attempt on WotC's part to get in on some of the computer-gaming crowd action. Depending on how they end up doing it.

 

[Pramas]

However, trying to convince somebody whose most recent superhero gaming experience was "City of Heroes" that M&M is worth the hassle of building a character can be frustrating at times.

This is exactly why the game includes character archetypes. Someone who has played a blaster in CoH could simply start with the Energy Controller hero archetype and be playing inside 15 minutes.

 

[Vigilance]

I agree its unlikely d20SH will outsell M&M just from the economics standpoint of M&M being a core book and d20SH being a supplement.

d20SH's audience is a subset of d20 Modern.

That said, as someone who's loved supers for a long time, I think d20 Modern is ideally suited to handling supers (it really is one of the most flexible game systems Ive worked with).

And I am very glad to see that the 160 pages looks not to be a mistake.

Chuck