D&D 5E Do I get sneak attack if I throw a Rapier or whack someone with my heavy crossbow

[DND_Reborn]

Slow down, I still have some things to say about halflings.

NO!!!!! Stop the madness!!!

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't agree with that. Below is what it takes to qualify for sneak attack.

"Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon."

And below defines what a ranged weapon is.

"Range. A weapon that can be used to make a ranged attack has a range in parentheses after the ammunition or thrown property. The range lists two numbers. The first is the weapon's normal range in feet, and the second indicates the weapon's long range. When attacking a target beyond normal range, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. You can't attack a target beyond the weapon's long range."

As you can see, the axe is a ranged weapon just by virtue of having the thrown property, so if a Rogue throws the handaxe, by RAW he gets sneak attack. He would not get it if he used the handaxe as a melee weapon, because it does not have finesse.

That text describes the property range, which weapons with the Thrown and Ammunition feature have. It does not define the ranged weapon category.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

What if it is a really skinny goblin, with a pointy head?


I agree with Maxperson on this one. The chart is an assist, not a definition. If you take the chart as definition, it negates the text Maxperson quoted, making the rules overall self-contradictory, but if you go with Maxperson's text as definition, they just chose not to double-list items in a chart. The latter is more self-consistent.

Disagree. If you include “ranged attack” rather than “ranged weapon” as part of the criteria for sneak attack, by that logic any thrown weapon, including improvised ones, would get sneak attack. Then you get into strange discrepancies like non-finesse melee weapons not getting sneak attack when used in melee, but getting sneak attack when thrown. Picture a rogue using a quarterstaff on an isolated enemy not getting sneak attack when using it to strike at 5’ but getting sneak attack when throwing the quarterstaff and hitting from 15’ away.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Assuming I meet the other criteria.

The rules are pretty clear that a thrown rapier has a 20/60 range and does 1d4. A heavy crossbow you swing at someone likewise does 1d4 (and so does a hand crossbow which makes no sense). The rules for sneak attack say .... "The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon" The rapier is technically a finesse weapon, and the crossbow is technically a ranged weapon so I think RAW I get SA (assuming I meet the other criteria).

While I am at it, if I throw a Goblin at someone do I use dexterity on the attack roll?

After some discussion in the thread, a very significant point came up so I have to change my ruling:

Sneak Attack​

Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.

A thrown rapier or melee crossbow would both be improvised weapons, neither of which are finesse nor ranged once they become improvised. Therefore, you cannot benefit from sneak attack with such awkward weapon attacks.

So, in general, no SA with an improvised weapon is an easy ruling supported by the weapon properties and groupings.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Irrelevant. Sneak Attack says Finesse OR Ranged weapon. There is no RAW requirement for it to be both. By RAW the rapier gets it, or else daggers don't.

Edit: Heck, if it has to be both then only darts get sneak attack. No other ranged weapon does.

The rapier doesn't have the "thrown" property, which means you can't throw it. You can throw a long pointy piece of metal that you have in your hand, but if you do that it is no longer a rapier. It is an improvised thrown weapon, the same as a rock. Improvised thrown weapons do not belong to the ranged group or have the finesse property so you can't sneak attack with them.

 

[Charlaquin]

A handaxe is not a Ranged weapon (see PHB p148: the weapons are clearly categorized as Melee or Ranged weapons). A handaxe has the thrown property and when throwing it the PC would make a ranged attack, but that does not qualify it for sneak attack per RAW.

Sneak Attack clearly states (PHB p96) that the weapon must be a finesse or ranged weapon. It does not say “ranged attack”.

Confusing because WotC is using the same term (“ranged”) for two related but different things here.

Well, they’re using the word ranged (with a d) for the category and the word range (no d) for the quality the Ammunition and Thrown properties share. But yeah, they’re close enough to cause confusion.

 

[Charlaquin]

Also, by your logic, it wouldn't use DEX, either, because it does not have the "ranged" property, either.

Ranged isn’t a weapon property.

 

[Hriston]

It does if it's similar enough to a weapon with the thrown property. A goblin certainly wouldn't be in that category, but some improvised weapons would.

Yes, I should have included the word necessarily in there.

 

[Charlaquin]

Seems silly to exclude thrown daggers from getting sneak attack. That's literally one of the classical rogue abilities. It's an arbitrary exclusion. This bow and this dart can use sneak attack, but these equally precise dagger and handaxe can't.

Daggers have Finesse.

 

[Charlaquin]

Which leaves us back at such stupidity as a thrown rapier gets sneak attack, but a weapon designed for precise throwing(handaxe) does not. Thankfully, this is a rulings over rules edition.

A thrown rapier is an improvised weapon. A thrown dagger is not.