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D&D 5E Does the Artificer Suck?

Zardnaar

Legend
Putting togather a new world tailor made for artificers wife might play one. She's good at power gaming but is struggling.

Basically it's based off Fallout 4 and guns exist. The environment is poisonous and requires con saves.

And they can manufacture water Purifiers. So having the advanced guns might get their damage up.
 

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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Let me start by saying this is a rant. It's a giant rat-king nest of run on sentences but the content is solid and worth considering when weighing in on the power level of Artificers if your group isn't going to casually look the other way to make the Artificer payable/fun. Having played an Artificer in a long term Eberron campaign in 5e through every iteration of the class since it was pitched as a wizard subclass, and having been asked to adapt my pcs mechanics through its various incarnations through the grueling slog of character progression as an artificer, I have a pretty in depth answer. Before I go into it I just want to give a disclaimer that the artificer class, in concept, has been my favorite character class since 3.5e and I have had fun playing one in 5e... Solely by the generous permission of the GM to allow it to make and innovate using the item creation system available to any class. In 5e the Artificer ends up falling short of its potential due to clunky oversights in game design that ultimately make for a class that, on paper, is capable of bringing a wide array of fun archetypes but in practice makes for the least cohesive class to play. For every inovative mechanic the class brings to the table to make its subclasses attractive, there seems to be an oversight in its implementation and those mechanics sieze up when forced to take into account the same core 5e mechanics that all other classes are bound to . The class ends up being the perpetual brides maid, never the bride when compared to other classes ( and I mean -all- other classes that are designed to fill that party niche). It is true that the scope of roles available to the artificer are impressive, but its range becomes meaningless when the reality sets in that the Artificer class too is locked to the far narrower strengths of the subclass you choose at 3rd level; any subclass of which is handily outclassed by all but the worst subclasses available to the core classes designed to fullfill its same niche. The most unexpected issue is that the artificer ends up being more multiple attribute dependent than anticipated, even for the subclasses that allow for substituting intelligence in their attack roles because that substitution is either limited to attacks made with magical weapons in the case of the Battlesmith or with armor specific weapons in the case of the Armorer. lets take a closer look at the mess that is Battlesmith under the microscope and you will see what I'm complaining about. As an Battlesmith Artificer your support role limited to the spells you know and using your pet's reaction wisely to impose disadvantage on enemy attacks. Compared to the other half casters you lose a fighting style in favor of an admittedly great set of cantrips, but will rarely if ever make use of them in combat due to the clunky requirement of weilding a set of tools or an infusion imbued item to cast those cantrips. Easy enough yeah? This means you have to have a dedicated hand to weilding either tools, or a nonmagical version of an item you have to soup up to end up on a net disadvantage (not -that "disadvantage"-) compared to the items other classes are getting for free as part of their loot from adventuring because your infusions (and primary weapon/item buffing spells) can only be used on non magical targets so if you plan on casting spells all the way through 20th level, you are still stuck holding tools, a mundane shield, or a mundane weapon. But the artificer has firearms proficiency and in theory the battlesmith is the subclass best equipped to make use of them right? Well you are going to take a hit to your ac because you wont be able to weild a shield because your nifty repeating shot infusion may create ammo for your gun but does nothing to get rid of the reload property guns have (which is different from the -loading- property crossbows have) so your second attack is as good as gone if you even pick up a firearm. You still lag behind the guys with archery fighting style and their likely +1 ranged weapon, sharpshooter etc. Oh and to rub in more salt in the wound, you likely wont ever have the feats to get xbow expert, no less sharpshooter so have fun being at a constant disadvantage in melee. Oh and here's another kicker ; your tailored bonus smite spells are all incompatible with ranged attacks so your special bonus spelllist is useless of you go that route. More salt in your wound, you dont get to add your intelligence to your armor class in lieu of dexterity and are still bound to its strength requirements so you may as well do away with that major benefit since dexterity is now nearly as valuable as if you were attacking with it anyway. Your steel guardian is cool but any of the other artificers can make use of the almost equivalent iron guardian. While the artillerist can issue commands to both his turrets, if you decide to get an iron defender too, you wont ever get to do the same for multiple homonculi so thats a useless infusion. The arcane zap that your guardian can do is nice to provide some extra damage or healing but the damage is lackluster compared to the steady flow from features like hex, giantslayer, or Hunter's mark. They took away your equivalent spell, arcane weapon even though it too could only be cast on a nonmagical weapon and thus was incompatible with your infusions, not because it was too powerful for you but because it could possibly be cherry picked and stacked by other classes and instead of giving you Hunter's mark or hex to fill that gap or making it a class feature that isn't easily dipped into they just left the void cementing the regret of not having played a ranger or hexblade crossbow warlock. That and a human hireling with a healing Kit easily outclasses your healing abilities in 5e. Oh and don't bother with two handed weapons because of that earlier mentioned need to have a tool in hand or a mundane weapon infused up because there are no infusions like repeating shot or "fancy shield" to support two weapons and their feat support is still riddled with dexterity and or strength based dependencies and you don't have those due to the big benefit you enjoy of using your int, which also happens to remain the weakest stat in 5e. On the plus side you do get to be proficient in con saves so on the off chance you get to use one of the concentration support spells that the full casters got access to 7-10 levels ago and are able to upcast several times better might actually be a detriment compared to the cantrips you are giving up most of your subclass benefits every time you cast one.

Each of the Artificers subclasses have awful issues just like this wether it's its the artillerist being outclassed, outgunned, and outsupported by the (anything that can cast fireball 4 levels earlier), the glaring issue of the Armorers weapons being about as effective as simple weapons unlike mundane simple weapons can be targetted by your infusions and spells, but at least you didnt have to worry about stength! (Except when grappling, jumping, climbing or being feeble and unable to use magic weapons the DM hands out and your AC being outclassed most other defender types, if not other Artificers. Or the bonuses the alchemist gets to key spell types which feature prominently on their spelllist.?. Nope! All this on top of the fact the Artificers big benefit, infusions, are essentially the equivalent of warlock infusions... er invocations except they eat up attunement slots and make you equip mundane items to gain their benefits, or the percent decrease to the cost of item creation despite no magic item having a price in 5e and the mechanics for making them left purposefully vaugue and unsupported as an optional system the DM has no obligation to include in their game. Imagine if the rogue and fighter instead of getting additional ability score improvements explicitly got feats and you are sol if the GM didn't want to include feats, but worse since at least then you get something. So many of the Artificers class features are item creation features DMs are incentivized to not include by the decision not to publish gold values for magic items. The biggest problem I see with the Artificer was making it's signature ability to use any magic item freely and use them as it's spellcasting niche to 14th level... A level which in a canon eberron game you have would count yourself among the rarest of individuals, the setting Elminsters and Mordenkainens, to have obtained so good luck ever making it there. Tldr: if I had more time I would have written a shorter post.
If you can't bother with basic formatting, why should I bother reading what you write? I know it sounds snarky but you yourself said you are doing it on purpose....
 


cbwjm

Seb-wejem
I'm not a fan of the artificer, I don't ban it from play but I also don't really make allowances for it in the game world. That is, there aren't any artificer's guilds in the same way that there are wizard guilds or cleric temples.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I'm not a fan of the artificer, I don't ban it from play but I also don't really make allowances for it in the game world. That is, there aren't any artificer's guilds in the same way that there are wizard guilds or cleric temples.

I might make a bigger effort. I've toldybwufe that in new setting the artificer would be +1 tier.

So battlesmith might be a low A and the others sort of a B.

They're got a lot if tools to avoid the drawbacks of what I'm designing.

Poison resistance infusion, ignoring ammo on a musket (and d12), con saves, ability to build water Purifiers. Oh power armor as well (counts as a tool).

This seems a absolute best case scenario though.
 

Iry

Hero
I've found the Artificer to be so-so. The biggest issues, to me, are the underwhelming subclasses and the lack of variety in infusions.

That said, I do think Artificers make S Tier tanks. Whether your group needs such a tank is a different question.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
If you can't bother with basic formatting, why should I bother reading what you write? I know it sounds snarky but you yourself said you are doing it on purpose....
I read it and a lot of his points are both entirely on the mark along with complaints raised & dismissed over the previous 25 or so pages. Wotc tends to look at things too much into the isolated whiteroom end of the spectrum and crewed p badly by trying to design a class rooted so heavily in the creation of magic items to fit into the spherical cow of no magic items rather than admitting said spherical cow needs to be shot dead or just admitting that a class rooted so heavily in the creation of magic items probably doesn't belong in cublicle7's AiME any more than the wizard does. That poor choice on wotc's part leads to a regular & frequent grating of rough edges rearing up during a campaign for an artificer when not playing in AiME baseline games
 


Let me start by saying this is a rant. It's a giant rat-king nest of run on sentences

And easy-to-read formatting to boot :)

I have had fun playing one in 5e... Solely by the generous permission of the GM to allow it to make and innovate using the item creation system available to any class.

The 5e item creation rules are lacking at best, incoherent (between DMG, ErftLW and Xanatar) at worst. However, if one of the players want, say, to play a ranger with favored enemy undead, I think it's bad form for the GM not to include any undead in the campaign and not let the player know beforehand. If you have a druid that can shapechange into beasts he knows... but the GM has decided that everything will take place on a small island kingdom were nobody has ever seen a bear, it's worth informing the player as well. I feel it's the same with artificers. I think they perform well either if magic items are totally impossible to acquire (so they are the only source and supremely useful) or if magic item creation rule, with the quarter-of-time-and-hafl-money is a serious class feature of them, allows them to retain their usefulness when regular magic items availability outperforms their magic item replication feature. Since Eberron is a magic-wide setting, I feel the latter is to be expected. Artificer were first designed with 3e ruleset in mind, when magic item creation was much more integrated with the setting, and the GM needs to take that into account (or tell it explicitely so people can choose a class more fitting).

A lot of your comments allude to a situation where everyone gets super cool magic items (and adapted to their playstyle to boo) while the artificer can't craft the exact one he needs to advance the party's goal. That's the exact contrary of the playstyles the Artificer can shine in, which would be both Eberron (magic wide but not very powerful, item creation possible) and the assumed default of not having magic item as they tend to break bounded accurracy (so the artificer is basically the only one with them).


lets take a closer look at the mess that is Battlesmith under the microscope and you will see what I'm complaining about. As an Battlesmith Artificer your support role limited to the spells you know and using your pet's reaction wisely to impose disadvantage on enemy attacks. Compared to the other half casters you lose a fighting style in favor of an admittedly great set of cantrips, but will rarely if ever make use of them in combat due to the clunky requirement of weilding a set of tools or an infusion imbued item to cast those cantrips. Easy enough yeah? This means you have to have a dedicated hand to weilding either tools, or a nonmagical version of an item you have to soup up to end up on a net disadvantage (not -that "disadvantage"-) compared to the items other classes are getting for free as part of their loot from adventuring because your infusions (and primary weapon/item buffing spells) can only be used on non magical targets so if you plan on casting spells all the way through 20th level, you are still stuck holding tools, a mundane shield, or a mundane weapon.

To be honest, I'd say most GM don't look a lot at the number of hands you have. If yours is, he would also want you to have a free hand anyway to perform the somatic part... so no casting with both a weapon and a shield, since you'd be lacking a free hand. So, the point you raise only apply to spells without a somatic component, for which it is totally valid. There are few : lightning lure, sword burst, faerie fire, blur and intellect fortress, plus a few other maybe on your subclass list. That's quite narrow though, and the solution in that case is to fight "normally" with magical sword and board, then, on the round you want to cast, drop your weapon (no action cost), draw the tool hanging from your belt (free as part casting the spell, you only need your now-free hand) then use the free Object interaction to pickup your weapon back. If enemies adjacent to you are readying an action to pickup your weapon in case you drop it to cast a spell, your DM is really out to get you...

But the artificer has firearms proficiency

True, but this won't really help in an Eberron setting were firearms are explicitely nonexistent.

and in theory the battlesmith is the subclass best equipped to make use of them right? Well you are going to take a hit to your ac because you wont be able to weild a shield because your nifty repeating shot infusion may create ammo for your gun but does nothing to get rid of the reload property guns have (which is different from the -loading- property crossbows have) so your second attack is as good as gone if you even pick up a firearm.

That's probably why nobody invented firearms in Eberron. Wandslingers and crossbows are much more powerful ;-) To be more serious, I don't think the firearms proficiency was mentionned to imply that artificers get access to better weapons than Renaissance firearms (the 1d10 one-handed pistol and the 1d12 two-handed musket) both of which have the loading property, like a crossbow. Modern firearms, if your GM is letting you access them, are better. Yes, you won't be able to infuse them with the repeating shot, but with 15 shots in the 2d6, one-handed automatic pistol, you can reload at the end of the fight. Most of them last around 3 rounds, so that's at most 6 attacks if you only shoot. The only problem would be with the decidedly inferior shotgun (2 shots)... but since it's two handed, you'd have lost your shield anyway. And frankly, you'd do as much damage using a 6-shot revolver one-handed (2d8), so why bother ever picking up a shotgun. It's like fighting melee with a sickle.

You still lag behind the guys with archery fighting style and their likely +1 ranged weapon, sharpshooter etc. Oh and to rub in more salt in the wound, you likely wont ever have the feats to get xbow expert, no less sharpshooter so have fun being at a constant disadvantage in melee. Oh and here's another kicker ; your tailored bonus smite spells are all incompatible with ranged attacks so your special bonus spelllist is useless of you go that route.

I think battlesmith were designed to be pairing with their clank steel defender in melee more than as ranged fighters. I am not sure I understand your rant about lagging behind other half-casters with a fighting style -- paladins? -- when fighting ranged. The smite (2 spells out of 10) don't make the bonus spell useless as a whole, by the way. I think you might be exagerating a little.

More salt in your wound, you dont get to add your intelligence to your armor class in lieu of dexterity and are still bound to its strength requirements so you may as well do away with that major benefit since dexterity is now nearly as valuable as if you were attacking with it anyway.

Since you're not proficient with heavy armor, the assumption is that you wear medium armor, so you don't need STR for them and DEX is useless above 14. Taking a feat to get heavy armor proficiency doesn't seem optimal given the high AC battlesmith already achieve. It is, actually, the first post I see complaning about them having a problem with AC due to DEX not being replaced by INT.


Your steel guardian is cool but any of the other artificers can make use of the almost equivalent iron guardian.
Care to elaborate? I have no knowledge of this. Do you think of the Homunculus Servant? The rest of your argument is difficult to undestand without reference.

That and a human hireling with a healing Kit easily outclasses your healing abilities in 5e.

I think hireling would be like famliars... the first to die if they showed up in combat after level 3 or so... TBH the fluff about battlesmith being combat medic is quite overdone, though.

Oh and don't bother with two handed weapons because of that earlier mentioned need to have a tool in hand

If dropping weapon is a free action, your DM is really after you if he doesn't allow you to hold a two-handed weapon freely. You only need it to wield it. A staff is a two handed weapon and we often see them held with a single hand outside of hitting people's head.

Each of the Artificers subclasses have awful issues just like this wether it's its the artillerist being outclassed, outgunned, and outsupported by the (anything that can cast fireball 4 levels earlier),

Once that fireball is cast, however, the artillerist is good at damage dealing for the 5 to 7 other fights of the adventuring day. If you're having less, it is going to favour long-rest features. That's a DM problem, not a balance problem (though I feel like you on this because the style of campaign I like makes it a stretch to fit so many fight in a day).

The biggest problem I see with the Artificer was making it's signature ability to use any magic item freely and use them as it's spellcasting niche to 14th level... A level which in a canon eberron game you have would count yourself among the rarest of individuals, the setting Elminsters and Mordenkainens, to have obtained so good luck ever making it there.

It's not harder to get to level 14 in Eberron than anywere else. You won't encounter NPCs that can steal the PCs's limelight by overshadowing, but there is no difficulty to run high-level campaign in Eberron. If you're looking for help on this point, Keith Baker's blog discusses it and has very good ideas.
 
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Ashrym

Legend
I like artificers.
I can live happy without having read them. There are so many posts and so many opinions, and only so many hours in the day.

Let me see if I can paraphrase something shorter:

  • Artificer has been my favorite class since 3.5
  • other classes do more damage
  • other classes have faster spell progression
  • INT is a weak stat to be stuck with
  • needs more feats because I can't fit the crossbow damage it
  • hirelings with a healer kit outclass artificer healing
  • invocations seem better than infusions
  • item attunement should be better
I think that covers most it. Some of it seems like valid feedback if it doesn't match expectations. Some of it looks like a stretch to add more to the rant.

Personally, I love the artificer. A lot of weaker magic instead of some stronger magic suits me just fine.
 

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