D&D 5E Does the Artificer Suck?

[Zardnaar]

Subtract the 1d8 and it’s still within the margin of error of rogue and fighter.

The level 3 Artificer can keep up with the level 5 rogue, without taking into account the Artificer probably has a +1 Wand they’re attacking with, and at level 5 can drop the 2d8 for 1d8+3 (or 4, or 5) THP for multiple allies, or can do things like cast a buff spell as an action and then do a 2d8 force damage attack as a bonus.

Assuming the cannon is online. If it's been destroyed, hasn't run out and the artificer doesn't have that many spell slots.

Best case scenario cherry picking specific levels. On paper the artillerist and battlesmith deal decent damage level 5 but there's an * there as it's not quite at will.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Assuming the cannon is online. If it's been destroyed, hasn't run out and the artificer doesn't have that many spell slots.

Best case scenario cherry picking specific levels. On paper the artillerist and battlesmith deal decent damage level 5 but there's an * there as it's not quite at will.

No cherry picking required, as I showed above.

The canon shouldn’t be getting destroyed basically ever, the smart play is to hold it, not make it a turret.

They should have kept the damage boosting concentration spell from the early UA version, sure, but the artificer is within margin of error of other damage dealers most of the time, and is a solid suppprt and healer, all of which is before taking infusions into account.

 

[Argyle King]

I included the duelist style in the numbers but not a feat.

Action surge doesn't effect the fighters damage to much and it's to limited when comparing at will damage.

One can include feats artificer benefits from them at well. Fighter could take something like PAM but artificer AC is probably 3-4 points higher which is the trade off.

So perhaps said fighter lvl 5 1d10+4 (+3 if non human) and 1d4+4.

That's 25.5 average damage. Magical polearms not common and you have to be a human ACs probably 3-4 points lower.

And fighter can action surge occasionally better nova damage if required.

What options does the fighter have outside of combat which compare favorably to having a minion which is linked to me anywhere on the same plane?

 

[Zardnaar]

What options does the fighter have outside of combat which compare favorably to having a minion which is linked to me anywhere on the same plane?

Not a lot but outside combat the artificer isn't the best there either.

It's the 3.5 bard. Useful to have around as a 5th member but is outclassed at virtually everything that matters except AC and tool use.

At higher levels that changes but I'm not disagreeing there.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It's the 3.5 bard. Useful to have around as a 5th member but is outclassed at virtually everything that matters except AC and tool use.

If by outclassed you mean “beaten by so small a margin that it’s within the range of mild statistical anomalies.”

 

[Zardnaar]

If by outclassed you mean “beaten by so small a margin that it’s within the range of mild statistical anomalies.”

And what is the artificers job? Overall it's outclassed by moderate min/maxed warriors and two of them are half casters.

It's not a primary caster.

So the opportunity cost of the artificer in the party is rogue or warrior types. It can't nova very well like the Barbarian/Paladin/Fighter.

It's not the best expert, best at damage, best at utility or best at support.

Bythe time it is somewhat competitive it's competing with big spikes in damage, 5th level spells etc.

Two of the subclasses are argueably decent.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

And what is the artificers job? Overall it's outclassed by moderate min/maxed warriors and two of them are half casters.

It's not a primary caster.

So the opportunity cost of the artificer in the party is rogue or warrior types. It can't nova very well like the Barbarian/Paladin/Fighter.

It's not the best expert, best at damage, best at utility or best at support.

Bythe time it is somewhat competitive it's competing with big spikes in damage, 5th level spells etc.

Two of the subclasses are argueably decent.

Your focus is alien to me, so I doubt we will find common ground.

The idea that they need to be the best at a given thing in order to be good is wild. The idea they need to strongly compete with focused damage dealers at damage dealing is just…we play different games.

 

[Ashrym]

Light cleric vs artillerist spell list. The extra 1d8 looks cute but potent cantrip or the dragon sorcerer's Cha to damage.

The extra d8 that looks cute and the artillerist gains at 5th level is +1d8 compared to the CHA bonus to damage at 8th level 3 levels worth of almost the exact same damage bonus.

We were comparing clerics and bards to artificers. This is another example of changing the class in comparison. The sorcerer is a completely different comparison that can pump out a lot of damage but suffers rapid resource loss in doing so and doesn't have the artificers versatility.

Draconic affinity comes at a closer level but without blowing sorcery points it's not better. It's actually slightly behind because a d8 can crit and the sorcerer will have +4 CHA bonus assuming no feats taken.

The light cleric adds:

burning hands -- cannons do this at will instead of using a spell slot
faerie fire -- this is on the artificer spell list before going to subclasses
flaming sphere -- this cost the bonus action you are already using for spiritual weapon or the concentraion for spirit guardians; it's on the alchemist list that you were knocking; cannons are a better use of the bonus action and don't cost concentration
scorching ray -- this is on the artillerist spell list
daylight -- this spell isn't available to the artillerist, but how is it making a difference here?
fireball -- this spell is on the artillerist spell list

Light domain spell list doesn't look like it's adding much at all, tbh, and the bonus damage is similar but later. The arcane firearm applies to other spells too, not just cantrips.

Additionally, the arcane firearm benefits from the enhanced arcane focus infusion.

Also the spell Spirit Guardiansin conjunction with a cantrip.

Great, but you are ignoring the cannon for either damage or healing that also work in conjunction with a cantrip. Concentration is still available to the artillerist to add faerie fire that you give up for spirit guardians to increase everyone's damage via advantage.

Spiritual Weapon as well.

This is the bonus action attack. Given that you were adding the 8th level bonus, these are 3d8 at 9th level. That's a closer level than the gap from arcane firearm to potent cantrip mentioned earlier. The range on this spell is not as good as the cannon bonus action damage. 1d8+3 when gained is less than 2d8 and the cleric needs to play catch up here.

Some clerics eg arcane and nature also get druid or wizard cantrips.

This doesn't help them with damage. Artificers have decent damage cantrips and have access to cantrips from cleric, druid, and wizard lists already.

Light cleric can upcast Spirit Guardians, use radiance of the dawn, a cantrip or whatever.

Artillerists can spend an action to blow up their cannon at higher levels too. It's a 20' radius 3d8 force damage attack will cost them a 1st level spell slot to replace and they still had the benefits up until that point on the first cannon plus the benefits of the second cannon replacing the first.

The cleric can upcast spiritual weapon too but the class only has so many slots to cast in the first place. That's replicating the only issue alchemists have -- burning through resources quickly.

1st level slots for cannons are far more efficient than upcasting, and the artillerist will still have higher spell slots to also use.

Tempest Cleric maximised shatters plus any of the other spells.

The arcane firearm benefits apply to shatter as well, or fireball. Better chance for targets to fail, a bit more damage on one of the rolls (not one of the targets ;-))

At 6th level assuming no feats when the tempest cleric can do that it's a 15 DC (base 8 + 3 prof + 4 WIS bonus) for 3d8 maximized and the artillerist is a 15 DC (base 8 + 3 prof +4 INT) for 4d8 damage. If we assume no bonus or penalty to CON save then the cleric's shatter will do 24 damage 70% of the time and 12 damage 30% of the time with 3 2nd-level slots and has 4 channel divinities to pull this off.

The artillerist will do 18 damage 70% of the time and 9 damage 30% of the time with 2 2nd-level slots. The artillerist has the same 3 2nd-level slots one level later at 7th level.

So a tempest cleric burning channel divinity would out-damage the artillerist and the artillerist would out-damage the tempest cleric in the same scenario when the cleric doesn't have channel divinity available or chooses not to use it for other reasons. What about other cleric subclasses? Do they suck because the tempest cleric has this option? The artillerist out-damages all of them with "that cute 1d8" so if the artificer sucks because of it they all must suck harder?

How is the cleric using shatters and spiritual weapon and spirit guardians and maintaining all this damage? The cleric only has so many spell slots and the artillerist is using cannons.

Etc.

Etc... isn't an argument. Just sayin'. ;-)

Variant rule from Tasha's they all get the d8 at level 8.

Yes, but that replaces potent cantrip. It doesn't add to it. The only benefit is changing to that "cute 1d8" for players who would rather roll 1d8 once per turn regardless of cantrip or weapon attack instead of using divine strikes or potent cantrip with a fixed bonus.

So they dont nova that well and the artillerist and battlesmith extra sources of damage can get killed/destroyed.

Killing or destroying either is damage the party isn't taking. That's hp damage soak artillerists and battlesmiths are adding. It's a benefit, not a disadvantage.

The cleric can lose all of his damage in the same way, however. For example, level 3 to 10 each, cleric vs steel defender vs cannon vs homunculus...

Level​	Cleric​	Defender​	Cannon​	Homunculus​	Artificer​
1​	11​	n/a​	n/a​	n/a​	11​
2​	19​	n/a​	n/a​	6​	19​
3​	27​	20​	15​	7​	27​
4​	35​	26​	20​	9​	35​
5​	43​	31​	25​	10​	43​
6​	51​	36​	30​	11​	51​
7​	59​	41​	35​	12​	59​
8​	67​	47​	40​	14​	67​
9​	75​	52​	45​	15​	75​
10​	83​	57​	50​	16​	83​

The defender is just short of the a 14 CON wizard in hp and the cannon has 18 AC not far behind. The difference is the defender and cannon can both be healed between every fight practically cost free using the mending cantrip but the cleric or artificer cannot.

The cleric can lose the bonus damage to a failed concentration check, counterspell, or dispel magic where the artificer cannot. The artillerist can replace the bonus damage with a 1st-level spell where the cleric cannot.

They don't nova as well as some other classes. That doesn't mean they don't nova, but what they do well is make efficient use of resources. Infusions don't use slots or concentration. Subclass abilities either don't use spell slots or use cheap 1st-level spell slots.

The artillerist doing 2d10+1d8 firebolts or whatever and adding 2d8 cannon damage with the free cannon before it might drop to damage and granting advantage through faerie fire is using a single 1st-level spell and accomplishing a lot with it. The light cleric doing 2d12 necrotic damage and adding 1d8+4 from spiritual weapon for a 2nd-level slot and 3d8 from spirit guardians for a 3rd-level slot.

2d8+1d8 is better than 2d12. 2d8 is better than 1d8+4. It's questionable on party make-up on how much damage faerie fire does but giving advantage to the group GMWs and SS's on top of the artificer's better accuracy from it is definitely meaningful.

I know the cleric adds a "cute 1d8" at 8th level but the artillerist adds another "cute 1d8" at 9th level, and another 3d8 from the second cannon at 15th level.

The at-will attacks for the artillerist later are 4d10+1d8 firebolts, +3d8 cannon1, +3d8 cannon2, before burning any slots or using concentration or any feat requirements or using any infusions yet. The cleric is 4d12+1d8 and then needs to burn slots to catch up. If the artificer wants to burn a slot for more damage then wall of fire or animate objects is available.

And level 5 is one of those cherry picked levels where it's a best case scenario for an artificer. The artillerist and battlesmith that's their best level relative to everything else.

Because they don't use those features for every level after that? ;-)

That's not at 5th-level. It's an ability that is used from 5th through 20th-levels gained at 5th level, which covers the majority of the levels you said you play at and consider.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Depends on what you're trying to do.

A spell-storing item loaded with healing is usually good.

At 11th level, 2 × INT mod castings of something without using any of my spell slots is nice.

As a bonus action (with a Homunculus/Steel Defender)! And you don't have to concentrate on it (if it's a concentration spell)!

My party's Battle Smith always starts off combat by casting Haste on the party's monk (their frontline fighter) as their action and casts Enlarge/Reduce on the Monk as a bonus action through their homunculus/steel defender. That's effectively concentrating on two great buffing spells at once, and the Monk can still stack their Eldritch Claw Tattoo and Hex (from Fey Touched) on top of that. (The monk, per attack, gets to do 1d8 + 2d6 + 1d4 damage, and they get 5 attacks using their Hasted action and Flurry of Blows. If he hits on all of his attacks, he deals an average of 100 damage, and can attempt Stunning Strike 5 times on the BBEGs. And he gets a +2 to AC, doubled movement, and advantage on DEX saves from Haste. With the Artificer's help, he's an absolute beast, which is way more valuable than hoarding his resources for himself, in our experience.)

Your own personal DPR isn't all that matters. What you can best do to increase the overall party DPR is often more important.

 

[Ashrym]

+1d8 damage to cantrips certainly sounds more impressive than 0.5 average damage above/below what an 18/20 strength or dex mod adds to each attack made by a relevant weapon not subject to energy resist & magic resist. That of course is why it doesn't get phrased that way when talking it up with an inflated worth.

Artillerists absolutely get the first level spell thunnderwave, second level spell shatter, & third level spell fireball except instead of getting them at levels 1 3 & 5 they get them at levels 3 5 & 9 to ensure they barely keep up with cantrip damage for most of them. At level5 fireball is pretty impressive... at level 9?... not even slightly & it's on the cusp of falling further behind at level 11.

Despite recovering nothing on a short rest artillerist actually has a mechanical cost to the group saying "lets take a short rest" after a fight. The flame & force turrets certainly sound fancy, but their speed & poor damage alongside the sheer effectiveness of "and I pulse my heal turret" every round ensures they can basically never use them before level fifteen when they can bring out a second turret with the same 1hr duration
.

It's not 1d8 to cantrips for artillerists. It's 1d8 to spells cast through the arcane firearm. That's better than the bonus to cantrips other classes get.

The spells coming earlier doesn't create more spell slots to use them or make them more effective and shatter was a spell brought up. I don't disagree that faster spell progression is a benefit, but what is the benefit for save-for-effect spells both progressions allow? Artificers abilities rely on less limited resources than a few high level spells.

We're back and looking at what artificers don't have compared to full casters and pretending artificers don't have other advantages instead.

There's no requirement to take a short rest. It's a good idea to take a short rest in order to spend HD for healing, however; a benefit all class have in taking those rests.

The cannon damage isn't poor. It's bonus damage that turns damage above the cantrip baseline into good damage. The option to use it for temp hp is also useful, and brings the cantrips down to typical cantrip damage plus temp hp. How is that bad?