D&D 5E Does the Artificer Suck?

[Zardnaar]

I'm not convinced the bladesinger is much better than a well built sorcerer for melee.

Dragon sorcerer with racial weapons or something later ke a Githyanki or Mountain Dwarf.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I'm not convinced the bladesinger is much better than a well built sorcerer for melee.

Dragon sorcerer with racial weapons or something later ke a Githyanki or Mountain Dwarf.

Translation:

"I'm not convinced that a subclass is better than a rare and niche race-class combination."

There are plenty of things that Bladesingers can do that Sorcerers can't (Extra Attack with Cantrips, anyone?), and a niche combination isn't really a valid comparison against a subclass. That would be like saying "I'm not convinced Life Clerics are good healers, because Aasimar Paladins can use healing touch/lay on hands to heal, too", IMO.

Besides, this is off topic, as this isn't a Bladesinger thread. It's an Artificer one.

 

[ECMO3]

Again, you could just skip it or MI and just let an actual tank keep you safe. You've got crazy speed, grab Mobile and fight like you were designed to fight, which is a skirmisher that tags enemies and then forces them to either chase and get hurt, or sit and stew and let your allies womp them.

Yeah one point, often when the play is MI and haste we haste someone else. I forgot to mention that above. Typically a striker (Rogue, Barbarian, Fighter) will get the haste. Mirror Image to keep the BS relatively safe without concentration and haste to drive up the parties offensive output. Those guys just do more damage on a single attack.

I agree on shadowblade, I often stop even preparing it after 7th level or so. Like I said above it is nice at lower levels when you need a magic weapon and it is the bomb on a multiclassed bladesinger Rogue, but on a straight bladesinger it is meh.

I don't agree about being a skirmisher or on mobile. In general you want the enemy to swing at you,, not someone else.

The party as a whole has limited hit points, usually a lot less than the enemies it faces assuming similar numbers and CR/level. Every time he swings at the bladesinger the party as a whole statistically takes less damage than if he swung at someone else. Even if you buy the argument that the wizard is more vulnerable to non-attack damage (and I don't buy it completely), those effects are going to hit skirmishers often because they are usually ranged or AOE spells, breaths etc and unless you can dash you can't kite away from them easily. So if I am standing back, good chance I take those anyway, while if I am standing next to another tank and the enemy is swinging his weapon the party would usually rather the enemy attack me instead of him. If I move away that is not possible. Maybe the enemy focuses on the other tank anyway, but if that is the case there is not much use in backing away anyway.

If/when I do kite in and out of the battle, I don't want the mobile feat and I think it is a waste. If I really need to avoid AOOs I can misty step, but that is rare usually AOOs are a non-issue in bladesong. If I have bladesong running (and especially if I have bladesong and blur up), I actually want the enemy to make an opportunity attack against me so he does not have a reaction to use later in the round and others don't suffer from them. Opportunity attacks are almost always melee attacks so they are usually of little threat to a bladesinger. Again I can't force him and maybe he holds his reaction if he can't hit me effectively, but again in that case mobile is not really any different.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'm not convinced the bladesinger is much better than a well built sorcerer for melee.

Dragon sorcerer with racial weapons or something later ke a Githyanki or Mountain Dwarf.

Same. Quickened spell is roughly equivalent IMO to Bladesinger’s Extra Attack, since it allows for action spell as a bonus action and then action booming blade, and that’s before getting into all the other cool stuff different sorcerers have.

 

[ECMO3]

I'm not convinced the bladesinger is much better than a well built sorcerer for melee.

Dragon sorcerer with racial weapons or something later ke a Githyanki or Mountain Dwarf.

In terms of melee attacks, a bladesinger is better because of the unique bladesinger extra attack, which is the best extra attack in the game other than the fighter extra attack that gives you a 3rd and 4th attack, and it is even better than that between levels 6 and 10.

As a matter of fact if you want to play an armored melee caster I would say a mountain dwarf or Gith bladesinger who never uses bladesong is better in melee than a sorcerer. You are giving up a lot and that is not optimized, but the bladesinger extra attack is that good compared to what you can do in melee with another wizard/sorcerer.

A mountain dwarf with a 14 Dexterity and half plate with a 18 strength and a greatsword will be doing a lot more damage in melee if he is a bladesinger than he would if he was a sorcerer. Not saying he is a better overall, but I do think he would be better in melee than a sorcerer.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Same. Quickened spell is roughly equivalent IMO to Bladesinger’s Extra Attack, since it allows for action spell as a bonus action and then action booming blade, and that’s before getting into all the other cool stuff different sorcerers have.

But it costs a bonus action, and takes Sorcery Points. A Bladesinger's Extra Attack is just at-will, and they still can use a bonus action to command a Flaming Sphere or some other spell (Blade of Disaster, if they're high enough level).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah one point, often when the play is MI and haste we haste someone else. I forgot to mention that above. Typically a striker (Rogue, Barbarian, Fighter) will get the haste. Mirror Image to keep the BS relatively safe without concentration and haste to drive up the parties offensive output. Those guys just do more damage on a single attack.

Hell yeah. If the DM doesn’t need Rogue-Haste, hasting the Rogue is pretty killer. Especially if the rogue is a swashbuckler or has mobile, so they’re less likely to need their reaction for Uncanny Dodge.

I agree on shadowblade, I often stop even preparing it after 7th level or so. Like I said above it is nice at lower levels when you need a magic weapon and it is the bomb on a multiclassed bladesinger Rogue, but on a straight bladesinger it is meh.

In a rolled stats game, I did a Cobalt Soul Monk/Bladesinger. Very good. Shadowblade was usually more worth the cost than haste because each attack wasn’t that big so 1 more wasn’t as big a deal as it would have been for the Barbarian.

I don't agree about being a skirmisher or on mobile. In general you want the enemy to swing at you,, not someone else.

Unless there is a beefy tank, in which case it’s their job to soak up hits and survive to take a short rest. In general I want enemies to want to hit me, and be punished for even trying, and have hard choices between me and the other PCs.

The party as a whole has limited hit points, usually a lot less than the enemies it faces assuming similar numbers and CR/level. Every time he swings at the bladesinger the party as a whole statistically takes less damage than if he swung at someone else. Even if you buy the argument that the wizard is more vulnerable to non-attack damage (and I don't buy it completely), those effects are going to hit skirmishers often because they are usually ranged or AOE spells, breaths etc and unless you can dash you can't kite away from them easily. So if I am standing back, good chance I take those anyway, while if I am standing next to another tank and the enemy is swinging his weapon the party would usually rather the enemy attack me instead of him. If I move away that is not possible. Maybe the enemy focuses on the other tank anyway, but if that is the case there is not much use in backing away anyway.

Unless backing off forces the enemy to attack the Barbarian who won’t really care, attack the fighter and get smacked by the sentinel Barbarian, or try to chase you and risk sentinel OA from the Barbarian and get boomed by your booming blade.

The mobility of the BS opens up rather a lot of very strong group tactics.

If/when I do kite in and out of the battle, I don't want the mobile feat and I think it is a waste. If I really need to avoid AOOs I can misty step, but that is rare usually AOOs are a non-issue in bladesong. If I have bladesong running (and especially if I have bladesong and blur up), I actually want the enemy to make an opportunity attack against me so he does not have a reaction to use later in the round and others don't suffer from them. Opportunity attacks are almost always melee attacks so they are usually of little threat to a bladesinger. Again I can't force him and maybe he holds his reaction if he can't hit me effectively, but again in that case mobile is not really any different.

Again, this only works if you’re running enemies with a fairly low hit chance against even a basic heavy armor fighter with no shield. As much as I like 5e, the monster design and CR are terribly designed, and even the best guidelines out there are barely usable. When making an encounter, I use the Deadly threshold as the floor, unless it’s a “trash mob” fight to make the group feel badass, or a string of fights with no time to rest or even throw heals between fights. When making enemies, I use AC and to hit numbers based on creatures with the same effective proficiency bonus as the PCs, as a baseline to see if my encounter will be challenging or not as is.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

But it costs a bonus action, and takes Sorcery Points. A Bladesinger's Extra Attack is just at-will, and they still can use a bonus action to command a Flaming Sphere or some other spell (Blade of Disaster, if they're high enough level).

None of that really challenges what I said.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

None of that really challenges what I said.

It kind of does. Sure, they have options, but I don't find them "roughly equivalent", because one has to spend resources to Gish, and the other does.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It kind of does. Sure, they have options, but I don't find them "roughly equivalent", because one has to spend resources to Gish, and the other does.

Neither have to spend resources to gish, actually. One has resources that enhance their gish game, especially when MCd with a few levels of warlock or Paladin, which is a very strong gish build, and the other is more of a steady atwill stream of gishness.

Doing full leveled spell plus booming blade is more powerful than what the BS does at will. Which makes sense, because it’s limited. Just like the fighter can nova better than the rogue by spending resources. They’re roughly equivalent in power, and both are very fun and quite strong if built well.