D&D 5E Honor Among Thieves Character Stats

D&D Beyond has published the official game statistics for various characters from the upcoming D&D: Honor Among Thieves movie.

The collection includes stats for Doric, Edgin Darvis, Forge Fitzwilliam, Holga Kilgore, Simon Aumar, Sofina, and Xenk Yendar.

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No this is the worst thing. And all other editions did better by not making them use the same rules.
AD&D has NPCs and PCs using the same rules, hence the need to differentiate Non-Players Characters from Player Characters. In fact certain characters bounce back and forth between PC and NPC, both IME and in what I've read of Gygax's table.

5E even has NPC-only subclasses like Oathbreaker and Death Cleric. That doesn't mean you can't let players play them anyway, but what you cannot do is argue that 5E NPCs are not allowed to have class levels. (Generic you, not you MonsterEnvy specifically.)

However. What you don't need to do in AD&D or any other game is show your work for NPCs. I've never played 3E except via CRPG, but from what I remember of ToEE there are long feat chains to acquire certain traits. As a DM you can skip to the end and just write down the end result. The same thing applies to monster equipment: you don't need to figure out how much their plate armor cost or who they bought it from or how long it took to forge. If it doesn't matter, just say they have plate armor, done.

You can even do this for PCs in order to get new players into the game faster. "Okay, you're a fighter with plate armor and a sword. You've been living as a hermit in the woods for the past 5 years, trying to figure out where to act on your secret knowledge, that your country, Ulm, and its arch-enemy Hinnom are secretly both ruled by the same cabal of mind flayers. You know some other stuff like languages but we can figure that out at an appropriate moment during play--just ask me, 'hey, do I know that language?' For now everyone is waiting for us--let's start play!"
 

Weiley31

Legend
Agree. As a DM, I hate that spell lists are removed from spellcasters. Hate it with a passion. It hugely dumbs down their tactical options and makes them way less interesting to run and challenging to fight. The worst offender of this new breed of stat block is the new version of Vecna, who is now barely a wizard and more a teleporting stabby guy.

This is simplification gone too far, for me.

He’s Vecna. Whatever plot level magic or special ritual I need him to have, he’ll have. That’s not something I need spelled out in a stat block.
At least he has a decently nasty Counter Spell thing.
But I can agree with some arguments that states he should have at wills of a number of spells.

I saw somebody on reddit say that he should probably also have the "Concentrate on two spells at once thing" that the one Dragon npc from the Ravnica book has.
 

I saw somebody on reddit say that he should probably also have the "Concentrate on two spells at once thing" that the one Dragon npc from the Ravnica book has.
Simon in the movie appears to have this as well. He can concentrate on Telekinesis while also casting a crummy version of Blur.

Amusing note: whoever wrote up WotC's version of Doric gave her only 5 wildshapes per day, whereas in the movie she does 7 wildshapes in 2 minutes during her escape sequence: insect, rat, (revert to human), rat, bird, cat, (revert to human), terror bird, deer.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Simon in the movie appears to have this as well. He can concentrate on Telekinesis while also casting a crummy version of Blur.

Amusing note: whoever wrote up WotC's version of Doric gave her only 5 wildshapes per day, whereas in the movie she does 7 wildshapes in 2 minutes during her escape sequence.

They also gave her spells (which she doesn't use in the movie). If you imagine that she used her spell slots for polymorph, in addition to the wildshapes - it all works out.

Or, you know, it's a movie.
 

DarkCrisis

Reeks of Jedi
Ive only read the prequel book but I don't get Forge as NE like at all. If anything he's CG like the rest. Though calling any of them "Good" is a stretch.

Like Robin Hood is the iconic CG. He robbed from the rich to give to the poor. Edgin and crew steal from the rich to give to themselves. I would say that's more CN. He cares about himself and his family, that's it.

Maybe the film will clarify some stuff. I plan to see it soon.
 

I wish PC druids had this action

Multiattack. Doric makes two Shaped Claw or Sling attacks. She can replace one attack with a use of Spellcasting.

Shaped Claw. Melee Spell Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) slashing damage

I used primal savagry cantrip a few times to do something like this
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Ive only read the prequel book but I don't get Forge as NE like at all. If anything he's CG like the rest. Though calling any of them "Good" is a stretch.

Like Robin Hood is the iconic CG. He robbed from the rich to give to the poor. Edgin and crew steal from the rich to give to themselves. I would say that's more CN. He cares about himself and his family, that's it.

Maybe the film will clarify some stuff. I plan to see it soon.

Mild spoilers -

Forge 100% lives up to a NE alignment in the film.
 

DarkCrisis

Reeks of Jedi
Mild spoilers -

Forge 100% lives up to a NE alignment in the film.
Yeah i get that. But WHY? In the novel he literally put himself in harms way to protect another person. He is not Evil by any stretch as far as I could tell. I wouldn't even say he's greedy, though he does have big aspirations. He's just an older Edgin more or less.

I'm guessing something happened between the prequel and the movie to alter his alignment.
 


Mort

Legend
Supporter
Yeah i get that. But WHY? In the novel he literally put himself in harms way to protect another person. He is not Evil by any stretch as far as I could tell. I wouldn't even say he's greedy, though he does have big aspirations. He's just an older Edgin more or less.

I'm guessing something happened between the prequel and the movie to alter his alignment.
Haven't read the novel, but, from the movie, easy answer is Riches.

NOTHING gets between him and large amounts of loot - it seems to override ALL his other imperatives.

He may like someone, he may even help someone at risk to himself (especially if that person can help get him to loot later) but nothing gets in the way of him and large amounts of treasure.
 

Yeah i get that. But WHY? In the novel he literally put himself in harms way to protect another person. He is not Evil by any stretch as far as I could tell. I wouldn't even say he's greedy, though he does have big aspirations. He's just an older Edgin more or less.

I'm guessing something happened between the prequel and the movie to alter his alignment.
He collaborates with a planned mass murder in order to get rich, and then when things go wrong he threatens to murder someone who looks up to him as a father figure, if he doesn't get his money back.

That's why.

I haven't read the novel so I don't know if he was always like that, underneath. For what it's worth he's perfectly pleasant most of the time in the movie. But true character reveals itself in times of stress.
 

DarkCrisis

Reeks of Jedi
He collaborates with a planned mass murder in order to get rich, and then when things go wrong he threatens to murder someone who looks up to him as a father figure, if he doesn't get his money back.

That's why.

I haven't read the novel so I don't know if he was always like that, underneath. For what it's worth he's perfectly pleasant most of the time in the movie. But true character reveals itself in times of stress.
Im assuming that's Edgins daughter. Whom in the book, he stands in front of her to shield her from possibly being attacked and killed.

For someone who values wealth he gives away magic boots simply to be nice.

I'm just going to assume the writer of the novel wasn't completely let in on Forge and his true motivations in the film.
 

Weiley31

Legend
Eh, while I do agree that stripping the spell lists from monsters kinda sucks, I view it this way: Non-boss versions of spellcasters would use the new approach that WoTC is using for em. Boss versions of spell casters would have the spell lists/slots.
 

Im assuming that's Edgins daughter. Whom in the book, he stands in front of her to shield her from possibly being attacked and killed.

For someone who values wealth he gives away magic boots simply to be nice.

I'm just going to assume the writer of the novel wasn't completely let in on Forge and his true motivations in the film.
Could be. Could also be that's he's emotionally complex enough to have conflicting desires, like "I like this kid" but "I don't want to die." DramaSystem is a good game for exploring that type of conflict.

In a game like Dungeon Fantasy, it would be revealing to see, when someone shoots at arrow at Forge, does he dodge and drop (the arrow might still hit Kira but at least they were aiming at Forge, so it cuts her odds of getting hit by about 50%) or stand there and take it so she doesn't?

In D&D that kind of character reveal can't happen. But he does clearly have some level of genuine affection for her even in the movie. And yet, true character reveals itself when it's tested. If you've seen the movie you know what I mean.

(Also we don't know yet what circumstances he would steal the boots back.)
 
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Eh, while I do agree that stripping the spell lists from monsters kinda sucks, I view it this way: Non-boss versions of spellcasters would use the new approach that WoTC is using for em. Boss versions of spell casters would have the spell lists/slots.
You can simplify the boss version of a monster even further while still respecting PC/NPC similarity. All you do is say,

"Sofina prefers the following spells and has enough slots to cast them freely for at least the first five rounds of combat: [list of five spells, ideally with a brief summary like 'Fireball: 8d6 fire damage in a 40' radius, DC 18 Dex save for half damage']. She can also cast Time Stop once. She has various other spells appropriate to a 17th level wizard."

That way if she needs to Teleport, she can take a day to Teleport. Etc.
 


Weiley31

Legend
You can simplify the boss version of a monster even further while still respecting PC/NPC similarity. All you do is say,

"Sofina prefers the following spells and has enough slots to cast them freely for at least the first five rounds of combat: [list of five spells, ideally with a brief summary like 'Fireball: 8d6 fire damage in a 40' radius, DC 18 Dex save for half damage']. She can also cast Time Stop once. She has various other spells appropriate to a 17th level wizard."

That way if she needs to Teleport, she can take a day to Teleport. Etc.
Hmmm, that's a neat way of doing it too.
 

DarkCrisis

Reeks of Jedi
Eh, or people change. Or he was bluffing at the end of the film.
Right. I assume something happened between the book and film. It's a pretty big swerve from "Protect little girl" to "Murder same little girl".

Nothing in the novel hints that he would murder for money.

Not to mention these people are his "family". He's the beloved "Uncle" or whatever. It's not just murder it murder and betrayal of family.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
Right. I assume something happened between the book and film. It's a pretty big swerve from "Protect little girl" to "Murder same little girl".

Nothing in the novel hints that he would murder for money.
Yeah, several years go by in the movie when we don't see what Forge is up to. If this were Star Wars, we could count on being bludgeoned to death with 40 novels explaining each month of that time in detail and we could see how he got from Point A to Point Z.
 

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